Profits, Sewers, and Elevators


Words matter.  When today’s 15 Apostles of the Church use words to describe themselves such as “true messengers, special witnesses, sure witnesses, certain witnesses, prophets, seers, revelators, and apostles” it becomes our sacred duty to determine if they are being misleading or telling the truth.  Especially given that we pay for undisclosed salaries and benefits packages and give them 1/10th of all we possess.  The duty to discern their words falls upon us members.

They call themselves prophets, seers, and revelators.  But whether they prophesy, see, or reveal remains to be seen.  In fact, the opposite appears to be true.

Did Brigham prophesy correctly when he said the Church would no longer be true if it abandoned polygamy or gave priesthood to the blacks?

Did Thomas receive a true revelation to not baptize children whose parents have made lifestyle choices we disagree with?

Did Gary receive a revelation to allow for gay leaders in Boy Scouts?

Did Spencer receive a revelation to give blacks the priesthood or was the Church worried it would lose its non-profit status with the IRS?

Where are the additional sections of the Doctrine and Covenants formalizing all the revelations they receive?  Where are the prophesies of these men we adulate?  Which of them possesses stones through which they see?  Why will none of them declare as do prophets of old that they have seen Him even on the right hand of God?  Why do they continue to speak in parables using vain and ambiguous language because some things are simply “too sacred” to share?

We have allowed time and tradition to warp and distort the true meaning of words.

I am curious by show of hands (comments) which of you who consider yourselves to be True Blue Mormons, believe that these men see God.  Or at least Angels.  I have heard the Brethren say that they are sure witnesses of Christ and that they know Him as well as the ancient Apostles.  What do you think these words mean?  Elder Anderson said at a funeral this last week that his witness was “certain.”  What does he mean by this?

Can we at least agree that some of these men lead us to believe, by their words, that they have seen Him?  That they converse with Him face to face?  And that it would be a grave and tragic issue, if in fact they have not?

I think there is no greater question that can be asked of these men than, “Have you or have you not seen the Lord?”  If you have not, then shame on you for leading us to believe that you have!  If you have, then where are your revelations?  Your expounding of scripture?  Your bold testimonies that carry to the hearts of the children of men?  Why do you take surveys when you have the keys to revelation?  Why are you using our sacred funds to build malls and cities rather than help the poor?

If we have 15 prophets among us, why have we not created Zion?  Where are the signs that follow after you?  Where are the tongues, the Angels, the miracles, the prophesies, the additional scriptures, or even the doctrinal dissertations?

I do not look forward to the teleprompter talks this next week, written by paid speech writers and assistants who worship them.  Parables of pickles and talks about following the Brethren even when they are wrong and of the Old Ship Zion.  Same old Ship, different day.  To me it has all become noise.  Words no longer have meaning.  And messages from these men do not have the power to change hearts.  They only seek to control and to keep others from entering in.

I invite you to contrast their words to the words of scripture.  If ye lack wisdom, ask God, not men.  Follow Christ, not the Brethren.  He is a real Man.  Sadly “they” are all effeminate impostors.  Might as well be Profits, Sewers, and Elevators, for they have corrupted the Holy Church of God, and their titles no longer mean anything.

God bless you as you seek Him, not them.


168 thoughts on “Profits, Sewers, and Elevators

  1. MC


    I got a kick out of your parable. I think you’re off your rocker, but I’ll play along, though I have a feeling I’m going to regret it. Just out of curiosity who or what is the Queen/mother suppose to represent? Salvation? The living water of the gospel of Christ? The priesthood? The Tree of life/love of God? I’m not really sure. I’m assuming the king is suppose to be Christ and the 15 men the brethren, but beyond that you got me.

    Also what do the few people standing in the corner discussing the problems hope to accomplish? I mean that in all sincerity.

    It’s seams pretty easy to sit back and bash the brethren from Brigham Young down to today. As human beings they of course all have their flaws. There are more issues surrounding Joseph Smith than anything surrounding Brigham Young or any apostle since. I don’t recall President Monson secretly marrying teenage girls and other men’s wives, behind his wife’s back, in clear violation of every commandment on chastity and marriage contained in our current scriptures. You can search any antimormon site and find all sorts of crazy things surrounding Joseph Smith. Failed prophecies, being duped by the kinderhook plates, contradictions in the first vision accounts, changing the wording of revelations from the Book of Commandments in the 1835 D&C, to name some of the big ones. Also the gifts of the spirit appear to have been weakening in Nauvoo as well.

    Before you jump all over me and call me apostate or something, let me explain my position. I’m not suggesting that Joseph Smith was a fraud, not at all. Nor am a declaring that he was a fallen prophet (though it’s certainly a possibility). My point is that there are tons of legit issues surrounding him, way more than our current leaders. On the flip side the gifts of the spirit where obviously with him (and the other early elders of the church) to a greater degree than we have today, at least prior to the Nauvoo era. I don’t have the answers to the issues surrounding Joseph Smith and those surrounding the trajectory of the church since his day. I know the gospel he restored is true. I know the scriptures he brought forth are true. There is a lot that doesn’t make sense to me. Everything surrounding the church both from it’s early days to now is varying shades of gray. Nothing is black and white.

    The Ephramite LDS are my people and even though I don’t know exactly what is broken in the church, nor do I expect to be able to fix it, I’m sticking with the church and it’s members. There are no better options out there. When the one mighty and strong comes and when the sealed portion of the plates and records of the lost 10 tribes come forth I trust we’ll have the answers. Until then there’s no point in panicking and loosing ones head. Everything is going work out and happen according to God’s purposes. If we keep the commandments and strive to follow Christ and serve our fellow man with all of our hearts we have nothing to fear.

    1. iterry54

      I’m glad you got a kick out the parable. It is actually a simile however. It is just a little rough draft that I jotted down for fun. Everything in this simile is found in the scriptures and is a prophecy of the last days. And that is what I wanted you to see in this fun little story. I thought it would be fun to put in some of the dialogue that has been going on between us and others in this blog. I hope it made it a little bit fun and a little departure from the ho-hum dialogue that goes on between us and others.

      So what does it all mean? Let’s start at the beginning and define the metaphors. The Lord’s language is metaphorical and unless you understand the metaphors the great truths are lost. Let’s start with the Queen/women. When the Lord uses the term women as a metaphor is always means the Church. So when you see her used you can be assured that it means the Church. Christ is the bridegroom and the woman is the bride. Both of them together create righteous offspring who are the members of the Church. So that is the first metaphor.

      The second thing you need to realize is that when the Church arrived in this valley the Lord dropped us off here and told us/women/Church to be faithful until He returns. This is what is meant by the King or Christ going off and leaving the women alone. Up until we got here there was revelation in the Church. Brigham Young received that last revelation given to the Church in 1847. The prophecy of this is found in Hosea 2:16-18. In this scripture the Lord leads her (the Church) to the wilderness and speak to her heart. Speaking to her heart means she receives revelation. The only revelation she received we now know was from Joseph Smith who received revelation. She was led here to a desolate valley which was the beginning of the anxiety. Anxiety for what? Anxiety of the Saints for the second coming of the Lord to receive His bride or the Church. That is the marriage ceremony which I’ll discuss later.

      Where is this found in scripture? Look at Hosea 2:16-18

      16. Therefore, behold I will seduce her, and I will lead her to the wilderness and I will speak to her heart.
      17. And I will give to her her vineyards from there, and the desolate valley for a beginning of anxiety; and 18. And it shall be on that day, declares the Lord, you will call [me] “my husband” and you will call me, “my master” no longer.

      Chapter 3 says that many days shall the children of Israel sit without a king nor officer and ephod and teraphim. What does that mean? It means when we were led here to this valley we were dropped off and revelation was removed. That is the meaning of no ephod and teraphim. These were devises used anciently for receiving revelation. If you look at the D&C you see that revelation was cutoff to the Church. The Lord has not spoken to the Church since 1847. There isn’t any revelation in the D&C beyond 1847 where the Lord spoke to the Church. There are those who claim revelation and we have one dream from Joseph F. Smith and a phony revelation to Kimball, but you can see that there isn’t any revelation. The idea that revelation continued in the Church is a myth. This is prophesied in chapter 3 of Hosea and D&C 101:45-63 the parable of the Nobleman which I posted before on this site.

      Chapter 3
      4. For many days the Children of Israel shall sit, with no king nor officer and no sacrifice nor pillar, and no ephod and teraphim.
      5. Afterward the Children of Israel shall return and they shall seek the Lord their God and David their king, and they shall tremble for the Lord and for His righteousness in the end of days.

      Notice in verse 5 they will seek their Lord and their God (Jesus Christ) and David their king. Who is David their King. That is another matter but to be very short in writing this is John the Beloved who is a prince of the Tribe of Judah and second in line under Christ as heir to the throne. Joseph Smith spoke of him and said in the last days old king David would be removed from the throne and another person by that name will be put on the throne. This is John – But that is another complicated story.

      The next part of course you got is the 15 men who were charged with making sure everything was okay in the Church. These of course are the 12 apostles and the 1st presidency. Well, they didn’t keep the Church pure and it slipped into apostasy. I’ve quoted a number of scriptures before but I’ll do a few more so that you see what I mean. The next part comes from Isaiah 1:2-6. This is talking about Ephraim in the last days. Isaiah according to Nephi is fulfilled in the last days (2 Nephi 25:7-8). Isaiah saw a vision of Ephraim or the Church. And this is what he said about us:

      2. Hear, O heavens! Give heed, O earth! The Lord has spoken: I have reared sons, brought them up, but they have revolted against me.
      3. The ox knows its owner, the ass its master’s stall, but Israel does not know; my people are insensitive.
      4. Alas, a nation astray, a people weighed down by sin, the offspring of wrongdoers, perverse children: they have forsaken the Lord, they have spurned the Holy One of Israel, they have lapsed into apostasy.
      5. Why be smitten further by adding to your waywardness? The whole head is sick, the whole heart diseased.
      6. From the soles of the feet even to the head there is nothing sound, only wounds and bruises and festering sores that have not been pressed out or bound up, nor soothed with ointment.

      Isn’t it interesting that Isaiah used the term ox in verse 3. Ephraim is called an ox in the blessing of Moses. This is a rhetorical link to us. You might also recall that the ox is used in the temple. The work of the dead was placed on the backs of the ox or Ephraim. Verse 4 says we have lapsed into apostasy. Verse 5 the whole head is sick and the whole heart diseased. The head of course are the leaders of the Church. The heart is the very life of the Church. It has lapsed into apostasy. The wounds and bruises are the signs of apostasy that are so prevalent in the Church today. Some of them you recognize as well as others. AB has done a pretty good job of documenting a number of them on this site.

      So then what is dancing with the dead corpse? That should be easy now. That means taking part in the Church. When we go along with what is happening in the Church and accept callings we are dancing with a dead corpse which is the Church. There are those in the Church who also white wash the apostasy. We have to be careful about doing that. This is prophesied in Ezekiel chapter 13

      The Lord specifically here talks about the 15 downtown. He also says there are those who cover the wall with whitewash. What does that mean. It means when doctrines are changed such as abortion, blacks and the priesthood, images of Christ then your stake president comes along and puts a fresh coat of white paint over the apostasy and makes it looks as if everything is okay. I’ve quoted Ezekiel 13 before. The rain and hailstones will be the destruction of the Church. I did not go into this in the simile however. Perhaps I should go into what happens when the Lord arrives. But first read this.

      1. The word of the Lord came to me.
      2. Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel who are prophesying from their own hearts. Say to them, Hear the word of the Lord!
      3. This is what the sovereign Lord says. Woe to the foolish prophets who follow after their own spirit and who have seen nothing.
      4. Your prophets, O Israel, are like jackals among ruins.
      5. You have not gone up to the breaches to repair the wall for the house of Israel so that it will stand firm in the battle on the day of the Lord.
      6. They saw false visions and their divinations are a lie. The say, This is what the Lord says, when the Lord has not sent them. Yet they expect him to fulfill their word.

      10. Because they lead my people astray saying, All is well when all is not well, and because one builds a flimsy wall and others cover it with whitewash,
      11. Therefore, tell those who cover it with whitewash that it is going to fall. Rain will come in torrents and I will send hailstones falling down and violent wind will burst forth.
      12. When the wall collapses, will the people not ask you, Where is the whitewash with which you covered it?

      The next thing is the coming of the Lord and this is found in Mathew 25:1-13 the parable of the 10 virgins. The cry is the coming of the Lord. But what is it? Some think this is going to really glorious. Well, I have news for you – it is not for those who are dancing with the corpse. Let me quote D&C 112:24-26
      24. Behold, vengeance cometh speedily upon the inhabitants of the earth, a day or wrath, a day of burning, a day of desolation, of weeping, of mourning, and of lamentation; and as a whirlwind it shall come upon all the face of the earth, saith the Lord.
      25. And upon my house shall it begin, and from my house shall it go forth, saith the Lord.
      26.First among those among you, saith the Lord, who have professed to know my name and have not known me, and have blasphemed against me in the midst of my house, saith the Lord.

      So when the cry is heard MC this is the beginning of the vengeance. And where does it begin? It begins on the Lords house or Ephraim. It comes against those who professed to know His name and have not known Him. Who is that He is talking about. Go back to Ezekiel 13 and you’ll find it. It is the false prophets.

      Isaiah 66:6. Hark, a tumult from the city, a noise from the temple! It is the voice of the Lord paying his enemies what is due them.

      Who then are His enemies? It is defined in D&C 112 as explained above. So the Lord is going to kill his enemies. He will be doing that at his temple. Which temple? It should be clear by now since Isaiah is about the last days. It’s the Salt Lake temple.

      The final part is the leaving of the king with the prince. He says that those who believe the Church is still alive must stay behind whereas those who see the problems are to follow Him and His prince. This is found in a number of places in the scriptures. The best one is Revelation 12:1-6. This is the exodus to Adam-ondi-ahman that we’ve always heard about in the Church but know nothing about it. The Church is reorganized on the Exodus and the woman is now beautiful. Nothing like the description of the apostasy in Isaiah verse 1. I can show you other scriptures about what the woman looks like when she is in apostasy. Basically the Lord calls her an adulterer .

      Revelations 12:1-4
      1. And there appeared a great sign in heaven, in the likeness of things on the earth; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars.
      2. And the woman being with child, cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
      3. And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up unto God and his throne.
      The woman here is the Church which is not quite beautiful (not in apostasy). The man child is not Christ however in verse 3. It is somebody else because Christ is the broom. This is David the King as mentioned before.

      Isaiah 22:25 says that the nail that was fastened in a sure place shall be removed. The entire context is quite interesting but to be brief right now the Church or more specifically the president of the Church is the nail in the sure place. It has become loose however because he isn’t keeping the commandments as I’ve mentioned many times. That nail will be dislodged and fall and the burden or the members who are hanging on him for direction etc will fall and be cut off. Or in other words being cut off from the Lord is being sent to hell and eventually the Telestial kingdom. This is mentioned in the All is Well in Zion scripture in the BOM.

      Isaiah 22:25. In that day, says the Lord of Hosts, the nail that was fastened in a sure place shall be removed. It shall be dislodged and fall, and the burden hanging on it cut off. The Lord has spoken it.

      Right now it’s a very dangerous thing to be a member of the Church because it is in apostasy. If you sustain these leaders and dance with the dead Church then you are sustaining their evil practices. You therefore cannot be righteous. That should be clear by now.

      There is much more of course that could be said about this. All of this is outlined in the scriptures. The best commentary that explains the metaphors is by Robert Smith. I’ve mentioned him before but that’s the best.

      I tried to be brief MC but it turned into a book. Sorry about that. I now think you can understand the simile fairly well now. It’s all found in scripture and I could quote a bunch more that support and expands all of this further. This I hope will suffice for now.

      1. MC


        I appreciate you taking the time to put that parable/simile together and for taking the time to break down its interpretation. Though we may not fully agree on the severity of the current state of the church, or what the best approach is to dealing with the issues at hand, I appreciate your viewpoint and scriptural interpretations. Your parable was a clever way to express your perspective in a different light and shake things up. Well done.

        I went through all of the scriptures and interpretations you shared. I think you make some valid points, perhaps things in the church are worse than I think. The ancient prophecies are certainly pretty ominous. I do think it’s hard to say though what the correct interpretations are to all those passages. Perhaps you have it all figured out correctly, and perhaps not.

        For example I couldn’t really tell what the “nail in a sure place” was really suppose to represent. You say the church and more specifically the president of the church, but I really couldn’t tell. I will study and ponder on what you shared some more. I will look into reading some of Robert Smith’s commentaries as well.

        One quick thought. I couldn’t see any evidence from any of those scriptures that there is anything wrong with continuing to stay with the church and remain active. Even if the church is 100% apostate from the brethren all the way down to the nursery (which I still really doubt) I see no indication that continuing to love and serve and do all one can for one’s brethren in the church will have any negative consequences, let alone be condemned by the Lord. It would seem that one can serve and love while being aware that all is not well that something big will have to be happen to cleanse the Lord’s house and fix things. I see no reason why one can’t serve and love while waiting for the invitation to go up to Zion in Missouri. I do believe that this invitation will not come through the brethren, but perhaps I’m wrong. It’s really hard to say how it will all play out. What do you think? Why are you so sure that continuing to love and serve in the church is such a bad thing? Like I said before Mormon did the same thing, as did many other righteous people in similar situations in the scriptures.

        Also if you’d like we could exchange email addresses or something and really dig into the topic we’ve been discussing. Not in a spirit of contention, but in the spirit of brotherhood and trying to mutually learn from each other. I have been enjoying our ongoing discussion.

        1. iterry54

          Thanks Mc,
          I understand your concern exactly. One thing that has always been an obstacle is understanding the scriptures. They are very difficult to understand and in fact impossible to understand unless you either have the spirit of prophecy to be able to interpret them, find a commentary where someone who has had the spirit of the prophecy and can interpret them for you, or somehow are taught the language of the Lord which is metaphorical. Once you understand the scriptures and the language of the Lord, however; then you’ll find that the Lord says the same thing over and over again through His different prophets. A few details are added here and there but they all are consistent and say the same thing. At least the prophecies about the last days all say the same thing so once they are understood you can read any of the prophets and understand where that particular event fits into the entire picture. If you have the incorrect interpretation then there will be contradictions. Those contradictions will pile up as you head down the wrong road of interpretation. I’ve found that so much in the CES writings in particular.

          When began my search I was aware that the Lord told me a bunch of times (in fact 10 times) to study Isaiah. Now there was a daunting task because there wasn’t any verse that I could understand. I thought I understood a few isolated ones, but since then I now know I was completely wrong. I had one requirement however. When I found a commentary or could understand the language enough to interpret one scripture which is Isaiah 11:15-16 I would know I was on the right track:

          Isaiah 11:15-16
          15. The Lord will dry up the tongue of the Egyptian Sea by his mighty wind; he will extend his hand over the River and smite it into seven streams, to provide a way on foot.
          16. And there shall be a pathway out of Assyria for the remnant of his people who shall be left.

          I thought that if I understood this scripture in its entirety which means understanding all the metaphors and everything. Then I would know I was on target. Well, I understand it now completely. This one is highly metaphorical and completely off the subject and so I won’t discuss it. I Just wanted you to have a glimpse of my thought processes in regard to scripture.

          I was debating whether I should use the nail in the sure place scripture because this entire chapter takes some considerable commentary to lay it all out for you. I guess what I wanted you to see in that scripture and we can talk about the entire thing later is that the vessels that are hanging on that nail will be cut off when that nail is removed. This is a metaphor for the present Church and particularly the president. The great admonition today is “Follow the Prophet”. What the Lord says is quite different. He calls them false prophets as I pointed out in Ezekiel 13. When the burden is cutoff all who are hanging on that nail will be removed. Very scary stuff!

          There are lots of scriptures about all of this and I only gave you a small snippet. Let me give you a few more to think about. You said that you didn’t see anywhere in those scriptures that it says we should not participate. And that is true I didn’t give any. Here is a question that you might want to answer for yourself. Why do you participate in the first place? One of the reasons is that the Church tells you that is what the Lord did. He came here and His work was to be a sort of male mother Teresa right? ? I can tell you this is false doctrine and the Lord Jesus Christ came here for one purpose only. And that was to perform the atonement and to prove without a doubt that He was God the Son. He never did any works other than that.

          We are now required by the Church to take in refugees. Our young beautiful women are supposed to serve missions in some of the most rot-gut places in the world. We must go to the temple every waking hour, do our genealogy, and callings. Why? Because these are works and it shows faith and we are saved by all the wonderful works we do right? Isn’t that what the Church is telling you and why you want to participate?

          Here is what the Lord says about your works.
          Isaiah 1:11
          11. For what purpose are your abundant sacrifices to me? Says the Lord. I have had my fill of offerings of rams and fat of fatted beasts; the blood of bulls and sheep and he-goats I do not want.

          This verse is couched in Mosaic law terms. Of course we do not sacrifice rams, bulls, sheep and goats today. But they are symbolic of the sacrifices we perform. One of the things the Church has tried to cultivate in the last few years is an image of a large, benevolent Church. The individual members make great sacrifices to the Church. In fact, we give more time, effort, money and even their sons and daughters to the Church than people of any other major organization. It is clear that we and the corporate Church are making abundant sacrifices. But the Lord asks what good are these sacrifices.

          12. When you come to see me, who requires you to trample my courts so?
          The Lord continues in the same tone. But here He is using a term for walking which we usually use to refer to a herd of animals who are out of control. Trample means to stomp and walk heavily. Again He seems to be talking of the way we comport ourselves in the buildings dedicated to His worship. In recent years we have become very irreverent in our buildings.

          13. Bring no more worthless offerings; they are as a loathsome incense to me. As for convening meetings at the New Month and on the Sabbath, wickedness with the solemn gathering I cannot approve.
          14. Your monthly and regular meetings my soul detests. They have become a burden on me; I am weary of putting up with them.

          He spoke of the offerings above and here He calls them worthless. He describes them as loathsome incense. Instead of smelling sweet, they are a stench to Him. In verse 13 the meetings at the new month and on the Sabbath are not appropriate or good meetings and He does not approve of them. He follows in verse 14 saying almost the same thing. The monthly meeting is obviously the Fast and Testimony meeting, or meeting at the new month, and the regular meetings are the other Sunday meetings. His words are very strong. The Lord says His soul detests the meetings. In addition, they have become a burden and He is weary of putting up with them.

          15. When you spread forth your hands, I will conceal my eyes from you; though you pray at length, I will not hear—your hands are filled with blood.

          He says only two things here. He will not see us nor hear our prayers no matter how long we pray and our hands are filled with blood.

          Mc you’ll have to figure out what the Lord means by we have blood on our hands. There are several possibilities but the one that stands out the most is abortion. Here in Utah 3,000 abortions are performed every single year. We put up with them and even are beloved governor just signed legislation that a baby is now to be sedated before the murder. You said you didn’t know how far we have slipped? Well, here the Lord calls us murderers.

          16. Wash yourselves clean: remove your wicked deeds from before my eyes; cease to do evil.

          How do you do that if you continue dancing with the dead corpse? How can you sustain evil men that promote this wickedness? That is why I’ve given up on them and can’t go anymore, because to do so would mean giving approval.

          But what are we to do? Well, we can talk about that another time. If you’d love to discuss over email I would be happy to send you Robert Smith’s commentary on Isaiah. He has written many commentaries on the old and New Testament, BoM, and D&C. So there is quite a bit. I have them all on the computer.

          One book called Last Days Unsealed was selling on Amazon for $999.00 a while back. The price has since dropped to a reasonable level now. All of his books are out of print however. If you’d like a copy send me a note at

  2. Jaron

    For what it’s worth and for anyone interested it seems that Denver Snuffer is conceding that seeing Christ while a mortal is not required for exaltation. His blog post from April 29th explains two forms of “ascent” to heaven – one way being having the second comforter (1st ascent) and the other way being having temple ordinances done and ascending after death. I think I’m reading his post right and if I’m not then correct me if I’m wrong. If I’m reading this right then I would ask, in all sincerity, is he now a false prophet for apparently changing his teachings on this important subject?

    “I preach, teach, exhort and expound to encourage every soul to rise up in this life and make the first ascension to God while in the flesh. Some have done so. Others will. Perhaps a great many will. I hope so. But if there are believers who cannot or will not do so in this life, the temple is the means God will provide to allow the “least of the Saints” to likewise obtain a hope in Christ by an authorized covenant which will bind on earth and in heaven. Then they become likewise heirs of salvation and part of the great congregation to whom the Lord will proclaim: “Well done!” They will have a legitimate and authorized means for laying ahold of the promise of eternal life and continuing the long path of ascent to the Throne of God to dwell with Him and Christ.”

  3. Ellee

    To MC and iIterry 54. I’ve enjoyed your conversation, iterry54 brings up some interesting points to consider and think about. However, some thoughts for MC. As I read the blogs and comments, it seems to me that the Lord is telling some people to stay in the Church, but others that it’s ok for them to leave. I’m one that He told to stay.

    So, I stay, but I’m not as active with everything as before, and the Lord is ok with that. I wondered why, He told me to stay, but recently I was reading (in either Nephi or Jacob, I don’t remember and am not looking at the BofM right now) but whoever was writing talked about living the Law of Moses. He said that they knew salvation did not come from living the Law and then he actually said “the Law is dead unto us”, but they lived because it was required of them and therefore it was counted as righteousness for them.

    I felt that this applied to me. I’ve asked and the Lord told me to stay. Therefore it is counted as righteousness for me. I think each person needs to find out what the Lord requires of them.

    I wish you the best in your searching.

    1. iterry54

      Ellee, it is very comfortable to stay in the Church. The provide quite a bit of social interaction of course. That isn’t the problem as I pointed out to MC. It’s the sustaining of the wickedness that is in the Church. That’s the problem. The Church has changed dramatically over the years. It is hard to tell what is good doctrine and what isn’t. For the most part what is taught in the Church now is not good doctrine. In fact, the doctrines that are being taught according to Ezekiel are not coming from the Lord at all but from Lucifer. That’s the problem. So while you want to stay active you have to be careful as to what you are sustaining.

      For example, by sustaining the brethren you are sustaining abortion in the Church. You can have an abortion in this Church (as long as you ask permission) in the cases of rape, incest, and life and health of the mother. Those are all permissible and no action will be taken against you. If you don’t ask permission well then that’s sin. I discussed this with someone in the Church about this very thing not too long ago.

      Isaiah on the other hand tells us we as a Church have blood on our hands Isaiah 1:15. There are 3,000 abortions in Utah every year. How many of them come from LDS homes – I don’t know. But I know that a friend of mine granddaughter got pregnant out of wedlock and was threatened by her bishop to have an abortion or face a Church court. She didn’t and that apostate bishop did not follow up and come through on his threat thank heaven. So this is a big problem, and one that won’t be discussed over the pulpit. It used to be back 40years ago – then it was called murder by the leaders.

      So my point is that you should not sit back passively accepting what these jackals dish out to you and sustain it. The members are going to be held responsible for their vote. Many think that it will be on the head of the leaders and not the members and the Lord requires us to sustain them. That is not true – we all have a right to judge our leaders because the Lord gave us that right. It is called common consent and was given so that there wouldn’t be any corruption in the Church. They have removed that right from us through apostasy. It is the reason I don’t attend because I will vote against them if a vote is held. Voting against them only brings down their wrath and you will be kicked out if you do that. Many who see the apostasy have been kicked out for not sustaining this apostates down town.

      Conditions were different at the time of Nephi. They lived the law of Moses but it was dead to them because the accepted Christ. The law was to lead them to Christ as it says in the NT. It wasn’t revealed to the Jews and even the House of Israel from the time of Moses to Nephi-Lehi although the prophets knew about Christ. It was only taught to the Nephites who lived in South America from 600bc to 400ad. So there was differences. The fact that they lived the law of Moses isn’t the same for us. We just need to be wise about what we do and sustain.

      Remember in Isaiah chapter 1 the Lord says He hates our meetings. He hates all the sacrifices we make in the Church meaning all of the temple work, jobs we hold, serving we do in the Church. He would rather that we do what we can to be righteous by keeping His commandments and not sustain wickedness.

      Maybe I ought to list some of the things the Lord condemns us for in the scriptures.
      1. Abortion (we have blood on our hands)
      2. Idolatry – the images and statues of Christ is condemned in the scriptures. In my chapel the average distance between an idol of Christ is about 5 feet down the halls of the Church. I can’t even stand walking the halls anymore – makes me itch. I feel like a vampire and the halls are filled with garlic.
      3. Keeping the Sabbath day holy
      4. Injustice, The Lord condemns both the ecclesiastical leaders and the governmental leaders because of injustice to the poor in our community.
      5. acceptance of homosexuality in the Church.

      These are all mentioned in Isaiah. There are others but that out to be good enough for now. Something to think about I suppose. I should mention that AB has done a great job of documenting the wickedness of the brethren.


  4. Brian Zang (The Zang Family)

    I don’t see anything different or damningly contradictory with Denver’s expounding. To condemn him as changing his positions on things as he clarifies and extends explanations is to cut oneself off from proper expounding…we are our own accusers with such overbearing standards. Also, if he has changed positions, he has tried to be explicit about such, providing reasons why he has changed and how he has been learning more as he has gone along. Concerning polygamy, Denver has always said he wasn’t prepared in the past to share all his opinions on the subject.

    As a lawyer, and maybe this is his Achilles heel or a talent of his, he often concedes many points that the other side argues, and focuses on one particular point he wants to cover and ignoring how the other side’s view makes him look. Later, he takes up the other points and shares his counter-points. This is done in trials all the time to gain ground without rocking the boat on other areas that are too sensitive or likely to cause debate and argument, or to avoid bad timing. Remember, the purpose of trials is to bring contending parties to reconciliation, or to have a just judgment pronounced when reconciliation is impossible. Despite the historical evidence otherwise, not all lawyers are evil. Denver is not an anti-Mormon. When he concedes points to their camp in order to discuss an issue, all hell raises up to point the finger and claim, “He MUST be an anti-Mormon, too! He doesn’t spit out hatred and contempt for our enemies, so he MUST be one of them!!” The same thing happens when he concedes points to the polygamists, the Re-organites, the Brethrenites, or whomever. “Who’s on the Lord’s side, Who?”

    I’m confused at the accusation that he is a false prophet when he has repeatedly refused the title of prophet to begin with, and said that he is working in the capacity of a teacher and a servant, the same as the rest of us. Maybe, as a true servant, he will be called a true prophet someday, but for now, he refuses the title until he actually accomplishes something noteworthy. Such expounding and learning as you go is the hallmark of a teacher, provided they qualify themselves as they go along, and Denver has done so as far as I can tell. John the Baptist did as much, saying there was a further baptism of enlightenment and fire that he needed.

    To suggest Denver is the one mighty and strong is to ignore Denver’s own persuasive arguments that the one mighty and strong could be Christ Himself, and not some mortal. How could he be claiming that for himself? He has only said he is the lowliest of members, and now an excommunicated one at that, simply for expounding as all members are commanded to do. It seems that Denver, and all of us, are doomed to failure in such a hypocritical double-standard mentality, yet General Authorities are immune to similar censure, and somehow above the fray of such impossible requirements for teaching. I hate seeing a man brought up on charges for erring in doctrine, Joseph Smith said. It sounds too much like the Methodists. Haven’t we become sectarians in these things? Haven’t we “sectioned” ourselves off from others instead of being inclusive like the Savior teaches? Instead the churches seem to only include the wolves among them now.

    John the Baptist did no miracles. Denver teaches from the scriptures in 4 Nephi that the gifts of the Spirit are a “second stage” event after learning to deal justly with one another and stopping contention. Is it any wonder we are not seeing as many of the gifts as we think we should? We are still arguing. That being said, I have seen miracles in the fellowships. There is fruit. Signs follow only those who believe.

    Concerning the charge about no scriptural support for the idea for seven women to sustain others for priesthood use in the community at large, Denver’s comments come as a new revelation, suggested as non-binding wisdom, given outside the jurisdiction of any church (which is not subject to the common consent of anyone in any church, but is only subject to the common consent of those acting outside of church atmospheres). Anyone can receive such revelation, and the only scriptural support it would need is that it qualifies according to the character of God to prove it came from Him and not some evil source. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or praiseworthy, or of good report, we seek after these things. Judge not, that ye be not judged. But remembering, that just because anyone can receive such revelations, doesn’t mean many or any will, it’s only according to the will of God. And, besides the few procedural clarifications we’ve accepted through Denver, we are focusing on the scriptures that have been given first to remember and preserve the Restoration before it dies out.

    If Denver is to be charged with anything, it is that he has had the courage to point out that the scriptures REALLY teach about re-baptism, and that they REALLY condemn LDS Church practices prophetically. His cry, and his appeal to converts to the true doctrine of Christ, is that we ought to obey God and what He says in scripture rather than men. If Denver changes his interpretations in an effort to get at what the original author meant by the Holy Ghost, what of it? The example he sets is that we are all supposed to do the same until we arrive at the truth for ourselves. There are some things Denver has never changed on, and that should tell us something. God bless him for escaping the trappings of being called a prophet. I suppose, when we all rise up to become prophets and prophetesses ourselves, then Denver will finally allow himself to qualify to be called one.

    To steal a phrase from Denver, My God, people! As Joseph Smith said, I love a man that swears up a storm, better than the smooth talking hypocrite. What a storm has been sworn up! Like with John the Baptist, Christ has surely sent a sword between father and mother and son and daughter and husband and wife. Shall we turn back from following our Lord because of it? My God, people! Please reconsider and listen to the words of your Creator through an authorized servant. Why will ye die? Even Nephi had to have his heart softened concerning his “visionary” father. Do not harden your hearts. What more could the Lord do for His vineyard? Now is the day to be re-baptized in support of these truths, come what may.

    1. MC


      Though Denver has tried very hard to not publicly declare himself to be a prophet he has on fact said several times that is in fact just that. In his 10th lecture he refers to himself as the Lord’s authorized servant and that all who reject his message will be damned. Sounds like he’s saying he’s a prophet to me.

      Someone asked him on his blog if he considered himself to be a prophet. His answer (I’m paraphrasing), “a prophet is someone who has the spirit of prophecy and I have the spirit of prophecy.”

      As far as your comparison of Denver to John the Baptist (who is also refered to as Elias), Joseph Smith clearly taught that those who come in the spirit of Elias preparing the way for someone else will never overstep their bounds. I don’t have the reference in front of me but can dig it up if you’d like. It’s found on TPJS I believe. If Denver is merely a teacher preparing the way for someone, then he has overstepped his bounds on my opinion. Rather than present a simple message from the Lord or even offer rebaptism he tries to explain almost every doctrinal issue, and in so doing frequently goes back and forth and even contradicts himself.

      Let me ask you this, if the lectures are truly the words of Christ how come Denver has backpeddled off of some of the things he taught in them? In the 1st lecture he boldly declared that Joseph and Fanny Alger were married. He didn’t say sealed as part of the law of adoption, he called it a marriage. Obviously he’s now teaching something different.

      Denver claims to be trying to build up Zion in a passive way, different from the strong armed tactics of previous attempts. However this is unscriptural as the Lord declared in the D&C that Zion must be redeemed with power. Plus it’s worth noting that we mere mortals aren’t just given a chance to redeem Zion ourselves, it can only come through a commandment of the Lord and through the hand of the one mighty and strong, who is not Christ himself, but rather a prophet.

      It would be wonderful if Denver was a true messenger of the Lord and all we have to do is follow his teachings, be rebaptized, etc, but it doesn’t work that way. Denver doesn’t have the authority to offer rebaptism let alone redeem Zion. It he does he wouldn’t do some of the things he does like advocating ordaining a man to the priesthood without ordaining then to a specific office, which is 100% against the D&C and everything Joseph Smith and the early Elder’s of the church did.

      Like I said in previous comments Denver’s claims are very convincing and he teaches a lot of truth. For those of us who have awakened to the knowledge that all is not well in Zion, Denver looks like the answer to our prayers. The problem is there are so many things that he teaches and does that just don’t add up when closely examined. You have to decide for yourself if you can accept Denver as a John the Baptist type messenger in spite of the issues that surround him.

      I don’t blaim anyone for following Denver, but I know for myself that he can’t be a true prophet, and based on his claims he’s a prophet whether he refers to himself as such or not. If he can’t be a true prophet then the only alternative is that he’s a false one. No mattet how much any of us want him to be a true prophet, or teacher, or whatever, that doesn’t make it so. We have the obligation to closely examine his fruits and unfortunately his fruits just don’t add up.

      Just look at some of things I pointed out in previous comments. They can’t be explained. Maybe one or two could be explained with a lengthy compex answer but as a whole they can’t be. There are many more issues I could bring up , but some are more complex and hard to break down in a blog comment. Please search these things out for yourself. Carefully compare everyone of Denver’s teachings and claims to the scriptures. It’s the only way to see what Denver really is.

      1. iterry54

        I agree with you MC. The Lord warned us there would be many false prophets in the last days and Denver certainly fits that description perfectly. I think one the problems the members have is the ones that are sustained downtown as prophets aren’t receiving any revelation,and the people are hungry to hear something from the Lord. So they go after these other false prophets that abound on the fringes of the Church in the last days. In my opinion these phonies they are very easy to detect. If the people would stick to the scriptures as their standard they would not be led astray. All the answers are found in them and they wouldn’t have to run after these charlatans. IT54

          1. iterry54


            One thing that is really odd is the re-baptism thing. When the Aaronic priesthood was restored Joseph was told it would never be taken from the earth again. No promise was made about the Melchizedek priesthood which was removed. So the idea of needing to be re-baptized is a glaring contradiction. All male members who have been ordained to the Aaronic priesthood hold that authority today. That is except for the blacks who cannot hold the priesthood as it says in Abraham 1. Everyone seeing that re-baptism is necessary should immediately label it as false doctrine coming from a false prophet. IT54

    2. Jim Bishop

      Brian I think Denver’s clarification is important about the second comforter because some would argue that you cannot be saved unless you see Christ in the flesh. That’s the whole point of Denvers book The 2nd Comforter is it not? Some are willing to be excommunicated all based upon this one point and get mad that’s it’s not taught regularly in church. For Denver to concede this point I think is huge! On a side note I think it’s interesting that Denver still attends LDS sacrament meetings (He himself says he’s NOT shunned at church) when he’s not able to speak and participate. Not sure I would do that if I believed the church was being led astray. I love you bro but be careful with familiar spirits.

      1. Brian Zang (The Zang Family)

        Jim, I don’t think there is any concession. Denver explains “The temple has only one real purpose: To convey God’s promise to exalt those who experience it; provided they abide the conditions for exaltation.” This is a conditional promise, and parallels the description of those who receive not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards receive it, such as those who inherit the terrestrial kingdom. At some future point, they will have to see Christ in the flesh, (not in the spirit world), to abide the same conditions. So just because the gate is strait and narrow, and few there be who find it in this life, it doesn’t mean that it isn’t absolutely required for the specific unconditional promise of eternal life that is imparted by coming into Christ’s presence. I resigned from the LDS Church a year ago. I am not LDS. I do not attend LDS sacrament meetings, but administer ordinances on my own and within fellowships. I consider myself Mormon and a brother to your movement, as you might consider the RLDS, even if you disagree with them and reject their claims to authority (for example). There is no reason we can’t live together in peace despite identifying as different types of Mormons. I’m not mad at the LDS Church, but I understand that is the only conclusion you can accept assuming that I have “apostatized” due to the handbook definition of that term meaning disloyalty to the organization. I have not apostatized from the gospel of Jesus Christ and the Restoration…I reject Brigham Young’s claims to authority beyond perhaps an Aaronic Priesthood commission that lasted until Apr 2014. Would be happy to discuss offline if you would like. As far as salvation in its most extensive latitude of interpretation, as the Lectures on Faith put it, I believe the scriptures are quite clear that you must see Christ in the flesh to receive that promise unconditionally, which then will take eons to work out. All other promises are conditional. I mean salvation as to overcome death by attaining to the power of the resurrection by being able to resurrect all those dependent on you, and not meaning your own resurrection, but to be a joint-heir with Christ, and to become precisely what He is at some future point, and to have His power. These are things that Joseph Smith taught, and Denver is just a parrot.

  5. Joe Murff


    I think you are missing the forest for the trees.

    I invite you to become as a little child in this matter, and live a few months of your life with these questions foremost:

    1. Does the Lord want / require you to be re-baptized at this time in your life?

    2. If yes, who might be acceptable in God’s eyes to accomplish that baptism?

    These questions have nothing to do with following Denver or not following him. They have everything to do with coming closer to Christ and seeking to know his will in the matter.

    At this point, I’m not convinced that you have experimented upon the word. You have dissected and deconstructed various aspects of the word that originated with Denver, but have you lived any of those words? Can you say from experience that being re-baptized according to his invitation has born good fruit in your life, or evil fruit? I will hazard the guess that you can’t do that.

    It is socially and emotionally expensive to obtain knowledge. It costs something precious to find out if something is true or not. Often it costs social comfort, reputation, and the risk of looking like a fool in front of those we most care about and want to remain close with. There is a real risk of being cast out of existing organizations and relationships. Obtaining knowledge costs our willingness to submit, to act, experiment, to go against the grain, to lose ourselves, to sacrifice ourselves in pursuit of oneness with God.

    I was extremely skeptical at the outset, found a hundred contradictions and impossibilities in what Denver was saying. But there was something powerful and undeniable at the core of his message that I wanted to isolate and understand. Either the core message was from Christ or it wasn’t, and I wanted to know.

    In order to test something honestly, you have to freeze out all of the noise and apparent contradictions for a trail period. You have to put all of your chips on the table, and see how the hand plays out on its own terms, not on your terms.

    If and when you are willing to leave your comfort zone as outlined above, you will be in a more legitimate position to make judgments about what Denver has said or not said. Testing his words won’t make you his follower. Testing his words will make you his equal or his superior. You will be able to understand his message on an experiential plane, and not merely on a theoretical one.

    To your credit, I think that your reading of this blog is an indication that you are searching with a significant level of intent. I think you have bet some chips and taken a few risks. But in the end you seem to be holding back, and for that reason important points of knowledge might remain beyond your reach.

    1. MC


      Believe it or not I have investigated Denver’s teachings pretty extensively with an open heart and an open mind. Nothing would have made me happier than to receive the witness of the Holy Ghost that he was in fact a true prophet sent by God. I have prayerfully and earnestly read through and studied well over a thousand pages of his writings consisting of at least half of his blog, PTHG, two of his lectures, his lecture on polygamy, and some of his Brigham Young’s telestial kingdom paper, as well as excerpts from all of his lectures. I have also listened to two of his lectures.

      I have definitely giving Denver and his claims substantial earnest investigation. Much of what Denver teaches is very impressive. I love the idea of being rebaptized and joining a fellowship, in fact for a time I really, really desired to be apart of the movement. I was more than willing to give up my membership in the church and join the remnant movement. I was prepared to do just that as soon as I received the witness that Denver was what he professed to be.

      However regardless of my yearning to be rebaptized I was not under any circumstances going to be rebaptized unless I received the witness that Denver’s claims were true, because unless Denver is a true prophet with authority from God being rebaptized by one of his followers would be offensive to God.
      The scriptures are crystal clear that one must have proper priesthood authority to baptize. So your suggestion to be rebaptized and then see what the fruits are is unscriptural and backwards. The witness must come first and then the baptism. That’s the way it’s always been since the dawn of time.

      Like I said Denver is a prophet, of that there can be no doubt. If a man claims to have seen Christ and have a message from Him then he is a prophet, end of story. It doesn’t matter if he tries to say he’s only a teacher or even an authorized messenger (which is an unscriptural term). Based on his claims Denver is either a true prophet or a false one, there can be no middle ground. He’s not just like everyone else. He’s very, very different.

      So how do I know that he is a false prophet and not a true one? No the Lord hasn’t spoken to me in an audible voice or sent an angel to tell me Denver is a false prophet. The witness I have received comes from Denver’s fruits and the lack of a spiritual witness.

      Denver claims that his 10 lecture series was given to him by Christ himself. I read and listened to them with an open heart and an open mind and did not feel the spirit or voice of the Lord in them, not even once.

      Many of his teachings and claims are either a little off or flat out false. I’ve documented some of them already. Can a true prophet teach false doctrine, let alone a lot of false doctrine? Will a true prophet contradict himself and the message he claims to have received from Christ not just once or twice, but many times?

      Will a true prophet tell you to secretly be rebaptized and then continue going to the LDS church searching for new converts as sort of an undercover missionary? Where is the scriptural support for that? If he was true prophet and the Lord took the priesthood from the church and gave it to him than why tell people to stay in the church? Please show me the scriptures were people were secretly rebaptized and then stayed in the church they previously came from? That’s not the way it works.

      In fact everything Denver is doing is unscriptural. If he was a true prophet he wouldn’t try to avoid being referred as one. It’s okay to be humble, but it’s another to twist and distort the meanings of prophet, messenger, servant, and teacher and make them into some hybrid new unscriptural calling. Some things are black and white, like being a true prophet or not.

      Please show me the scriptures that prophecy or mention a true prophet that comes along prior to Christ’s second coming, who tries to claim he’s not a prophet, teaches a good amount of false doctrine, regularly contradicts himself, has a sketchy claim to priesthood authority, and tries to establish Zion passively? Those fruits alone testify that he is a false prophet.

      I know so much of what Denver teaches and encourages people to do is wonderful. The thought of being rebaptized as a covenant with Christ is awesome. This is why he has gained such a following, that and what IT54 expressed about people being disappointed in the brethren and then turning to someone they believe better demonstrates the fruits of being a prophet.

      I totally get it. It all sounds so great. I wish it were true, I really do, but it’s not. I know it’s harder that it’s not true, but that is the reality. Currently there is no prophet sent by the Lord to guide is (besides the brethren.) I know that’s scary and very unsettling, but it’s the truth. Whatever spirit and apparent good fruits that come from being rebaptized through this Denver led movement are false. It is the work of a familiar spirit. The road he is leading his followers down does not lead to Christ. Please, please open your eyes and look at all of the things I’ve pointed out about Denver. Search your heart, how can a true prophet or servant teach false doctrine and contradict himself so much? Please try and answer the issues I’ve raised about Denver and his claims, if only within your own heart. If you want to brush them all aside and blindly follow Denver and the familiar spirit that is with him, that is of course your right. I can’t do it, no matter how much I may want to or how much easier it would be.

  6. Joe Murff

    I agree with you that there must be some spiritual basis upon which to act. I guess I would call it a partial witness or a preliminary spiritual nudge, which takes place before pure knowledge is given, before the trial of faith is accomplished, before a firm witness is given. Alma 32:28 outlines it this way:

    “Now, we will compare the word unto a seed. Now, if ye give place, that a seed may be planted in your heart, behold, if it be a true seed, or a good seed, if ye do not cast it out by your unbelief, that ye will resist the Spirit of the Lord, behold, it will begin to swell within your breasts; and when you feel these swelling motions, ye will begin to say within yourselves—It must needs be that this is a good seed, or that the word is good, for it beginneth to enlarge my soul; yea, it beginneth to enlighten my understanding, yea, it beginneth to be delicious to me.”

    You claim that no such preliminary nudges or feelings have occurred during your study of Denver’s writings, and therefore no further testing is merited. You claim that you provided a place for the seed to be planted in your heart, that you did not cast it out by your unbelief, that you did not resist the Spirit of the Lord; that the seed produced no swelling motions, no enlargement of soul, no enlightenment of understanding, no trace of the word being delicious.

    And yet you admit: “Much of what Denver teaches is very impressive. I love the idea of being rebaptized and joining a fellowship… I have …read through and studied well over a thousand pages of his writings …”

    I think that this admission of yours intersects with what Alma is talking about. I think that you received an initial impression that the seed might be good. But then you cast it out by your unbelief. You found reasons to stop tending the seed, and you avoided carrying out an experiment of faith. And now you are demanding a witness, and claiming that it would be offensive to God to conduct an immersive experiment in pursuit of a witness.

    I think there have been swelling motions in your heart indicating to you that what Denver has written has merit. Why else would you read over a thousand pages of his writings? Why not stop at 1 page, or 5 pages, or 15 pages? Why 1000+ pages? What motivated you to keep reading?

    I think you kept reading because there is something provocative, special, insightful, and divine about what Denver has written. I think what happened is that you started the test of faith, but you haven’t finished it. You’ve cast out the seed because of unbelief.

    You appear to be demanding a sure witness before you will act. That is not how the gospel works. As Moroni says in Ether 12:6 – “ye receive no witness until after the trial of your faith.”

    In this particular matter, you are not child-like. You are not humble. You want everything to make perfect sense and to be “crystal clear” before you will act. This is not how the gospel works. Denver being a weak and simple man, being full of imperfections and contradictions – this doesn’t destroy his core message. His core message is that Christ has issued an imperative that you be re-baptized at this time in your life, and that you need to seek out those who are worthy to do that.

    Even if Denver is wrong, being re-baptized by someone who thinks they have authority would not be offensive to God. It would prove to God that you are willing to go out of your way to find Him. It would demonstrate that you are willing to explore all avenues; that you are not casting out a potentially good seed without testing that seed with full purpose of heart. This doesn’t mean that you need to go out and get dunked by every denomination that claims to have authority. But I think it does mean that if something held your attention for 1,000+ pages, and you dropped it cold without finishing the investigation, then you can’t claim to have properly tested that seed. If the seed was worth 1,000+ pages of your time, then it is worth the risk, humiliation, and test of a physical baptism, which would only take an hour or two of your time.

    These words of yours seem to be about getting the witness first (I’ve added all caps for emphasis):

    >>>>>“I was more than willing to give up my membership in the church and join the remnant movement. I was prepared to do just that AS SOON AS I RECEIVED THE WITNESS that Denver was what he professed to be. … I was not under any circumstances going to be rebaptized unless I received the witness that Denver’s claims were true, because unless Denver is a true prophet with authority from God being rebaptized by one of his followers would be offensive to God. The scriptures are crystal clear that one must have proper priesthood authority to baptize. So your suggestion to be rebaptized and then see what the fruits are is unscriptural and backwards. THE WITNESS MUST COME FIRST AND THEN THE BAPTISM.”<<<<<

    Consider how opposed your words are to this counsel from Alma 32:16 – “Blessed is he that believeth in the word of God, and is baptized without stubbornness of heart, yea, without being brought to know the word, or even compelled to know, before they will believe.”

    Run the experiment to it’s logical conclusion. Alma 32 is about being baptized before we are 100 percent sure that it is what God wants (verse 16). It's about watering the seed with a literal baptism, as an important step in the investigation, so that the seed can sprout and eventually show what kind of fruit it has to offer.

    Also, have you read this scripture-based explanation of prophets? It is in 7 parts, and very insightful:

    1. MC


      Perhaps I was a bit careless in my some of my comments including my last one. Let me explain to you why I studied so much of Denver’s teachings.

      I woke up to the knowledge of the church’s apostasy in large part because of some ongoing discussions with a friend of mine. My friend would bring up issues regarding the current state of the church and I would try to refute them. Many of the things he brought up were completely new to me. In order to try and refute his claims I had to do a lot of study and research into church history and the current actions of the brethren. This went on for several months. Eventually the light bulb came on for me and I discovered that the church was in apostasy. I prayed in full sincerity of heart to know if this was in fact true. The witness of the spirit in answer to my prayer, confirming that the church was indeed in apostasy, was undeniable. I had never experienced anything like it. I would compare it to how what Lamoni described when he became converted. I shared my newfound discovery with my friend who then revealed to me that he believed that Denver Snuffer was a true messenger sent to warn the saints like Abinidi. He loaned me a copy of PTHG, which I read, as well as everything else I documented.

      So why did I read so much? Well initially I was very impressed with Denver’s blog, which I read first. I hoped he was a true prophet and my understanding of the scriptures was very basic (like the typical mormon). Because of this I found his insights and scriptural interpretations to be very impressive. I kept waiting to feel a similar spiritual manifestation to the one I had just recently experienced. It never came and before too long I began seeing things that didn’t make sense or add up when compared to the scriptures. When I would mention these things to my friend he would tell me to just keep reading. He told me about the lectures and that they were the most important message Denver had to offer, because they were given to him by Christ. So I read the first two and was unimpressed. I shared this with my friend. He told me to listen to them instead. I didn’t do that at this time, but did several months later and felt the same thing, nothing.

      So again the question why would I keep investigating? Is it because I felt something? I suppose I did feel something, but I now know that it wasn’t from God. Whatever I may have felt was not the main reason why I kept at it even when I knew something was off. I kept at it and even revisited it a couple of times because I desperately needed something to hold on to. I wanted so very badly for Denver to be a true prophet. I wanted it all to be real, even when I knew it wasn’t.

      As I have come to be better acquainted with scriptures I know what Denver is teaching is false. It is a corruption of the scriptures. So much of what he teaches is so very close to the truth that it’s very hard to see through his deception, especially initially. I would expect nothing less of a false prophet leading people to a false Christ. His claims and teachings have to be impressive and very, very close to the truth, otherwise no one would follow him. This is why the scriptures warn us to be super careful to not be deceived by false prophets and even false Christs in the last days.

      One thing is for sure, there is a real power that is with Denver and his followers. His followers think this is the Holy Ghost, but I know it isn’t. I have felt what the Holy Ghost really feels like, and the spirit that surrounds Denver and his followers is different. It’s a real spirit alright, just not the Holy Spirit.

      I don’t expect you to believe a word I say. You must do what you think is right. I wish you all the best. I do believe that those who follow Denver are largely sincere seekers of truth. Perhaps the Lord will provide a means to uncover Satan’s veil of deception that is with Denver. I pray that he will.

      I’ve said all I have to say on Denver and the movement. Take care.

    2. theworkofthefather


      It seems to me that your saying when someone doesn’t believe as you do, they are not being humble enough to receive a correct answer from God. It is my opinion that only false prophets and false teachers would ask people to pray about their message. True prophets would never tell people to “pray” about what they were doing. When a true prophet comes among us, he will give us scripture, like Paul and like Joseph did. We will know it’s true. Contrary to popular belief, the Book of Mormon does not ask us to pray whether or not it’s true; it says that once we have RECEIVED it (and already believe in it) that we should pray and ask if it is NOT true.

      That’s where the part about being humble comes into play. We recognize how easily deceived we can be and pray to God and make sure that we are indeed on the correct path. But when true scripture/true prophets come along there will be no room for question. The evidence will be overwhelming to the humble followers of Christ, yet they will remain humble enough to pray and ask if it’s correct.

      I find it interesting that it bothers you that MC read about DS so extensively. You ask why he never just stopped at 1 or 5 pages. What is happening right now with DS is extremely imperative to his salvation and the salvation of many many others. Either there is a true prophet leading people to eternal life, or there is a false prophet ruining lives and spreading the concept of a false christ.

      There are many of us that recognize the apostasy of the LDS church and retain our belief in Jesus Christ and Joseph’s prophetic status. Right now Denver Snuffer seems to have a monopoly on people like us. This is why it is important to study DS and why he has such a huge pull on so many of our fellow saints. MC has provided many reasons in this blog thread why he rejects his message. You have neglected to comment on those. In fact, all DS followers brush off any criticism leveled against them.


  7. Heber

    The Word of the Lord has been given to the School of the Prophets concerning Denver Snuffer. He is not a servant of the Lord, but is leading people astray.

    It is encouraging to also know from the Lord that He has promised a coming “year of cleansing” in which He will remove all the Gentile pollutions from His church and restore it to Servants that will do His bidding.

    1. iterry54

      How can that be Heber since the School of the Prophets ended over 100 years ago. The Church is in apostasy now and the Lord has not corrected anything yet. The proof of that can be found in D&C 112:24

      Behold, vengeance cometh speedily upon the inhabitants of the earth, a day of wrath, a day of burning, a day of desolation, of weeping, of mourning, and of lamentation; and as a whirlwind it shall come upon all the face of the earth, saith the Lord.

      And upon my house shall it begin, and form my house shall it go forth, saith the Lord.

      So Heber how can the school of the prophets be functioning when the Lord hasn’t done anything yet. Sounds to me like you are in the same boat at Denver. If I were you I would climb out of that boat since according to the D&C revelation was cut off to the Church in 1847 when they arrived in this valley according to D&C 101:43-64. There are lots of false prophets out and about there Heber. I would be careful in who you follow. IT

      1. Heber Frank

        Hi iterry. The School of the Prophets I am talking about is the one authorized by the revelations found in the Second Book of Commandments. It was set up in 1982 in Boise Idaho. God foreordained all prophets before they were born. No one can tell God He cannot foreordain and raise up a prophet in our day. If you question the Priesthood authority behind this organization, you can read and study this:

        1. iterry54

          Thanks Heber for that explanation. But the problem I see is that until the one mighty and strong comes who is John the Beloved there will be no revelation given. The Lord set up an organization where only the president of the Church can receive revelation. That is made clear in the D&C. The problem is that if the president is not righteous then the Lord will not speak to him and we are left in the dark. So what the Lord did in the last days is opened up the scriptures like Isaiah and Ezekiel and they are the prophets sent to us to tell us to repent in lieu of the ones who are in apostasy.

          That is how we can detect who is and isn’t a prophet. The Lord warned us in Matthew 24 that there would be false prophets among the people in the last days. D&C 101 says there will be NO revelation until the destruction of the Church. And that is why I cannot accept the 2nd book of commandments because it is outside of the revelations given. It would be like accepting the spurious gospels of the New Testament like the Book of Thomas. Those are all called pseudopigrapha and aren’t true revelation.

          I can understand why you would run after that stuff though because there isn’t anything coming out of SLC. The saints are hungry for something from the Lord. But you have to be careful and stick within the revelations from God as I mentioned. IT

          1. Heber

            Hi. Well I do not agree with your all of your assessment. Have you ever read the 1880 Wilford Woodruff revelation given when John Taylor was the head of the church? Even President Taylor accepted that revelation. That revelation specifically says others can receive revelation besides the head of the church, but such revelation must be given to the head who would decide if it is to be given to the church members. So clearly there are problems to what you are saying. You are accepting (it seems and I could be wrong) the thinking and ideas of Robert Smith above your own ability to study the matter out and get guidance for yourself. JST Mark 9:40-48 should be read at the start of every General Conference. “Therefore, let EVERY MAN stand or fall, by himself, and not for another; or not trusting another.” Where in D&C 101 does it say there will be no more revelation until the destruction of the church? And even if “the church” does not have further revelation, there are other organizations that God has set up that are not the church. Can He not speak to them?

  8. iterry54

    Heber, I put the commentary on this site about D&C 101. When you understand the metaphors then you understand that when Church arrived here in the valley revelation to the Church was removed. The reason for that removal is found in D&C 101. It says in 101:43-63 that they failed to build the tower. What is the tower? It is revelation. A prophet get into the tower and is able to look into the future. That is the meaning of the metaphor tower. Verse 48 says that this happened because it was a time of peace. Peace in the Church did not happen until we got here to this valley. The Church interprets this parable differently but they are wrong and this verse is the proof of that. The giving of money to the exchangers in verse 49 is the Church getting involved with Babylon. All of the twelve became business men in the early days. The Church started a bunch of businesses. They would borrow money from the Church then have the Church forgive their loans. There were even law suites filed between the early 12. They were like the ones today and are nothing more than business men – for that reason the Lord cut off revelation.

    John Taylor wrote a bunch of revelations. Whenever he needed to get the 12 to do something he sat down and wrote out a revelation. In a number of journals the 12 reported that they knew they weren’t given by the Lord. I’ve read them and there is no metaphorical language in them which is a clue that they are not from the Lord. The Lord always speaks metaphorically and you see that language all through the D&C. There is none of that in JT’s revelations. They were never accepted as authentic by the 12 and they should not be. They are false and D&C 101 tells us why they are false.

    But there is more, Hosea chapters 2 and 3 say the same thing. Those chapters say that when the saints were led here to the valley the Lord left us alone and told us to be faithful until he returns. In says were were left here without an ephod , and without teraphim Hosea 3:4. This is revelation and confirms D&C 101. So there is more than one scripture that tells us that revelation was cut off after the time of Joseph Smith.

    What the Lord did is opened up the words of the ancient prophets to warn us in the last days. Those are the prophets you need to be concerned with not the bunch of false ones running around today claiming revelation.

    Thanks, IT

  9. Heber Frank

    Gee Ira, I hate to admit it but your reply makes me quite cynical. I usually really appreciate your comments on this blog, and also your comments on There are myriads of non-Mormon writers out there that have studied the “Word of the Lord to His servants the prophets” and they have their books they sell that explain things no one else has figured out. But you can be sure that these same writers will adamantly reject the idea that God can give any MORE “Word of the Lord to His servants the prophets”. And they will quote Revelation 22:18-19 to prove it. But Rev 22:18-19 actually does NOT put any conditions on God. It condemns any MAN that will add or take from a revelation God has given. When they use those verses to prove God will never bring forth more revelation they are themselves ADDING to those verses: doing the very thing those verses warn against. But you got to see their point of view: how can they sell their books if the Lord interferes by bringing further revelation that exposes the few errors they are also trying to sell? There was a fundamentalist writer some time ago that had a series of pamphlets titled: “How to be a Prophet”. The first thing he says is, “I do not claim to be a prophet…” Gee. Get out of here! If I want to learn to be a prophet, I want a prophet to teach me. I accept John Taylor’s revelations even if they undermine somebody’s book sales. Am I being too cynical? If apostles at the time rejected them, then I do not trust those apostles. Wilford Woodruff’s 1889 revelation did not condemn John Taylor, so that one would have to be false also. I believe no one has any right to put conditions on God calling a prophet today or ever. D&C 101 simply does not say God cannot call a prophet independent of His church. How much evidence do we need to finally see that Christ’s worst enemies are always priestcrafts in His own house?

    1. iterry54

      Heber, I guess that is one of the points is that God will not call a prophet outside of the organization that He set up. Why would He do that? It would cause great confusion and people wouldn’t know what is correct. Afterall – God set up the organization.

      Anciently He didn’t do that. He could send many prophets to warn the people to repent. But today the way the system was set up is the 12 ordain the one who is to be the Lord’s prophet and presents that person to the Lord and tells Him here is your prophet. What does the Lord do? Nothing – He can’t give that person revelation because today the so-called prophet is wicked. My stake president told me that the Lord would remove him if he were wicked. I told him nonsense – they have free agency and what happens is if the next one is just as wicked as the one before? They all are wicked men now running the Church.

      And so we are left without revelation. As I mentioned the scriptures are clear to me that the Lord removed revelation after Joseph because they all ran after mammon instead of doing the work of the Lord. It all fits pretty good because all it takes is a look at the D&C to see that there aren’t any revelations added. Why weren’t any of the John Taylor revelations accepted and put into the D&C. Answer – the 12 wouldn’t accept them and knew they were all spurious. The revelations don’t even sound like the Lord speaking. I don’t know how you go about picking and chosing which are valid revelations from John Taylor. I haven’t found any that are from the Lord. So it is what it is. If you want to follow someone who say they receive revelation then it’s your choice of course. There are lots of faults prophets in the world. How do you tell who is the lord’s prophet? IT

  10. Robert

    I think we have been deceived long enough, the brethren are nice and probably trying hard to lead the church but I don’t think they are receiving revelations or conversing with God on anything, they may from time to time receive some inspiration but that is not how Zion should be, the scriptures testify of gifts and power of God to convince the nations, we are not convincing any one with our political corporate style, if anything we are convincing people to not believe. I disagree with those who say that we should stay put and wait for God to fix it or send some “strong one” to fix it, if we want true Zion, we member ought to repent from our iniquities, idolatry, greed, envy etc… and come to God with full purpose, we need to get rid of all these traditions and turn to God completely otherwise we will be cut off as the BOM testifies.

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