Do We Still Believe Anything Joseph Taught?


The Second Comforter

The other Comforter spoken of is a subject of great interest, and perhaps understood by few of this generation. After a person has faith in Christ, repents of his sins, and is baptized for the remission of his sins and receives the Holy Ghost, (by the laying on of hands), which is the first Comforter, then let him continue to humble himself before God, hungering and thirsting after righteousness, and living by every word of God, and the Lord will soon say unto him, Son, thou shalt be exalted.

When the Lord has thoroughly proved him, and finds that the man is determined to serve Him at all hazards, then the man will find his calling and his election made sure, then it will be his privilege to receive the other Comforter, which the Lord hath promised the Saints, as is recorded in the testimony of St. John, in the 14th chapter, from the 12th to the 27th verses.

Note the 16, 17, 18, 21, 23 verses: [Quoted.]

Now what is this other Comforter? It is no more nor less than the Lord Jesus Christ Himself; and this is the sum and substance of the whole matter; that when any man obtains this last Comforter, he will have the personage of Jesus Christ to attend him, or appear unto him from time to time, and even He will manifest the Father unto him, and they will take up their abode with him, and the visions of the heavens will be opened unto him, and the Lord will teach him face to face, and he may have a perfect knowledge of the mysteries of the Kingdom of God; and this is the state and place the ancient Saints arrived at when they had such glorious visions–Isaiah, Ezekiel, John upon the Isle of Patmos, St. Paul in the three heavens, and all the Saints who held communion with the general assembly and Church of the Firstborn.

Calling and Election

Now, there is some grand secret here, and keys to unlock the subject. Notwithstanding the apostle exhorts them to add to their faith, virtue, knowledge, temperance, etc., yet he exhorts them to make their calling and election sure. And though they had heard an audible voice from heaven bearing testimony that Jesus was the Son of God [Mt 17:5], yet he says we have a more sure word of prophecy, whereunto ye do well that ye take heed as unto a light shining in a dark place. Now, wherein could they have a more sure word of prophecy than to hear the voice of God saying, This is my beloved Son?

Now for the secret and grand key. Though they might hear the voice of God and know that Jesus was the Son of God, this would be no evidence that their calling and election was made sure, that they were sealed in the heavens and had the promise of eternal life in the kingdom of God. Then, having this promised sealed unto them, it was an anchor to the soul, sure and steadfast. Though the thunders might roll and lightnings flash, and earthquakes bellow, and war gather thick around, yet this hope and knowledge would support the soul in every hour of trial, trouble and tribulation. Then knowledge through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is the grand key that unlocks the glories and mysteries of the kingdom of heaven.

Salvation through Knowledge

It is not wisdom that we should have all knowledge at once presented before us; but that we should have a little at a time; then we can comprehend it. President Smith then read the 2nd Epistle of Peter, 1st chapter, 16th to last verses, and dwelt upon the 19th verse with some remarks.

Add to you faith knowledge, etc. The principle of knowledge is the principle of salvation. This principle can be comprehended by the faithful and diligent; and every one that does not obtain knowledge sufficient to be saved will be condemned. The principle of salvation is given us through the knowledge of Jesus Christ.  (TPJS)

Why are we so quick to assume that we are saved or will be saved merely because we have joined the Church, participated in ordinances, and are enduring to the end through home teaching, church service and temple work?

Why does the Church now openly condemn those who prefer Joseph’s admonitions over today’s Church leaders’?

Why would the Lord allow all the prophets of scripture including Joseph Smith to openly testify they have seen Angels and the Lord, only to then instruct all of Joseph’s successors to never testify of the same?

Is it possible today’s Church leaders have never entertained Angels or been in the Lord’s presence?  If they have not, what would this change?  If they have not, why would they lead people to believe they are special witnesses?  And have a “sure knowledge”?  Why would we still call them Prophets, Seers, and Revelators?

Is it possible that Joseph’s words below apply to our Church today?:

Compare this principle once with Christendom (the LDS Church)? at the present day, and where are they, with all their boasted religion, piety and sacredness while at the same time they are crying out against prophets, apostles, angels, revelations, prophesying and visions, etc. Why, they are just ripening for the damnation of hell. They will be damned, for they reject the most glorious principle of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and treat with disdain and trample under foot the key that unlocks the heavens and puts in our possession the glories of the celestial world. Yes, I say, such will be damned, with all their professed godliness. Then I would exhort you to go on and continue to call upon God until you make your calling and election sure for yourselves, by obtaining this more sure word of prophecy, and wait patiently for the promise until you obtain it. (TPJS)

Are we “crying out against prophets, apostles, angels, revelations, prophesying and visions, etc.”?  Is that what today’s leaders are doing when they warn us that making calling and election a focal point is a “tactic of the adversary?”  (Dallin Oaks)  Are they crying against Joseph Smith and his revelations?

Why do we assume that God is not just IF only a few are saved?

And it came to pass that when Jesus had ended these sayings he said unto his disciples: Enter ye in at the strait gate; for strait is the gate, and narrow is the way that leads to life, and few there be that find it; but wide is the gate, and broad the way which leads to death, and many there be that travel therein, until the night cometh, wherein no man can work (3 Nephi 27:33).

Is it because we assume that God cannot damn most of His children and still be just, merciful, and loving?  Do we ignore the scriptures at our own peril?  Do we not understand eternity and eternal progression?

One of my dear friend’s keeps reminding me, “Joseph taught a fundamentally different gospel than the one we teach today.”  I think he’s right.

75 thoughts on “Do We Still Believe Anything Joseph Taught?

  1. Anon for This

    Is it because we assume that God cannot damn most of His children and still be just, merciful, and loving? Correct.

    Do we ignore the scriptures at our own peril?
    No, I believe in the Book of Mormon which is pretty clear that those who accept the Savior and are baptized will be saved.

    Do we not understand eternity and eternal progression?
    Yes, if we have ETERNITY to ETERNALLY progress then all of us will eventually be exalted. The Prophet Lorenzo Snow said when we are out of this mortal coil, almost everyone will accept the Gospel.

    You used to be very interesting and insightful with your comments on Mormon culture but this blog has turned into essentially a hell-fire-and-damnation blog with just of few of you choice people being saved and the rest of us losers being damned. Talk about missing the mark.

  2. Isaac

    I find this really interesting, please tell me more! I am thirsting for the feast of Jesus Christ!

  3. SeekerofTruth

    What you are saying is intriguing. Has what Joseph taught been lost in the hype and marketing of the modern Church? I vaguely remember doctrinal talks given in conference decades ago. Now what we are given is ‘motherhood and apple pie’. Have we fallen into the hands of the Churches spin doctors? How do we recapture Joseph’s teachings? My mind is full questions and I’m not sure how we can recapture what has been lost.

  4. EricDL

    hehehe you’re funny Anon for This.
    From the BOM; Enos:
    “22 And there were exceedingly many prophets among us. And the people were a stiffnecked people, hard to understand.

    23 And there was nothing save it was exceeding harshness, preaching and prophesying of wars, and contentions, and destructions, and continually reminding them of death, and the duration of eternity, and the judgments and the power of God, and all these things—stirring them up continually to keep them in the fear of the Lord. I say there was nothing short of these things, and exceedingly great plainness of speech, would keep them from going down speedily to destruction. And after this manner do I write concerning them.”

    I’ll bet that there were those among them who said something similar to…You [brethren] used to be very interesting and insightful with your [preaching on Nephite] culture but [your prophecying] has turned into essentially a hell-fire-and-damnation [prophecying] with just of few of you choice people being saved and the rest of us losers being damned. Talk about missing the mark.

    But it harsh teaching doesn’t make the truth without effect does it.

  5. Jeff the Ephraimite

    …”then let him continue to humble himself before God, hungering and thirsting after righteousness, and living by every word of God, and the Lord will soon say unto him, Son, thou shalt be exalted.”

    Interesting it doesn’t say “son and daughter”. I also find strong words of rebuke in the book of Isaiah concerning Israel’s guides…today’s leaders. (and great are the words of Isaiah) according to the Savior himself.

    Is it possible that Joseph was our last true watchman on the tower? Is the church totally consumed in Babylon which is about to be destroyed? Where are the righteous 144,000 today?

  6. Benm

    log, you don’t allow comments on your blog, so I wanna make sure I let you know I appreciate the work you do on it. I’m not gonna lie, I’ve seen myself changed profoundly by trying to take Jesus’ commandments like a child would his father’s. I’d say I was leaning that direction but your blog has helped persuade me to take Jesus’ charge more seriously.

  7. Benm

    Jeff if you believe in the LDS scriptures and take a real look at the LDS church and its history since Young, I think you will find there is no possible way to reconcile the church post-Smith-bros and a belief in the scriptures and Smith’s teachings.

  8. Pingback: Joseph Smith and the Restoration | Sweet Dream Zion

  9. Jaron Ahlmann

    Jesus said his doctrine is faith, repentance, baptism, and receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost and that we should not teach any more or less than this. Of all that is written in scripture there is relatively little about the second comforter and making your calling and election sure. Why hyper focus on this one teaching? Of ALL that Joseph said, you have a FEW excerpts that one could obsess over and discount everything else that he said. Joseph said a lot of things … For instance – there is no greater work than missionary work. At another time he said there was no greater work than temple work.. Which is it? Did he contradict himself? And don’t quote me on those statements but my point is he said a lot of stuff…. Most revelatory but he was human and maybe not everything he said was 100% doctrinally correct…. Why do some put his teachings on a pedestal over the teachings of all other prophets as if he was something other than a human being also? The Lord has clearly taught himself what we MUST do to gain salvation – those BASIC principles and ordinances. Why do we need to complicate things?

  10. iterry54

    Anon – that is false doctrine. It is very clear in the D&C that once you are assigned a kingdom of Glory then that is the place you stay for eternity (D&C 76:112). You do not grow from Telestial to Terrestrial to Celestial and eventually be exalted. There would have been absolutely no reason for the war in heaven if that were the case because all you would have to do is hang out until you are Exalted. This is a doctrine of Lucifer.

    Sorry, Lorenzo Snow was not a prophet of God. D&C clearly states that most go to the Telestial not Celestial as stated by AB. IT

  11. iterry54

    Jaron, the reason we should put what Joseph said on what you term a pedestal is because he was a prophet of God. The others since his time were/are not prophets of God. They are merely presidents of the Church. These so-called prophets as AB has pointed out many times disavow the teachings of Joseph Smith the prophet and they teach false doctrine.

    Let me give you an example. Joseph taught in the Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith that the Holy Spirit of Promise is none other than Jesus Christ. James Faust taught in General conference that the HS of Promise is the Holy Ghost. Faust was not correct in teaching this doctrine and by doing so diminished Christ as the Second Comforter. It is very important to understand true doctrine and it takes a true prophet of God to teach you those true doctrines.

    This is an example false doctrines taught by the current leaders of the Church. You have to be aware that they are leading the members astray by what they teach. IT

  12. Chris Chandler

    iterry54 – Maybe Faust did the same thing, but as recent as April 2012, Elder Eyring quoted Harold B. Lee who was quoting Melvin J. Ballard, equated the Holy Spirit of Promise with the Holy Ghost.
    “We may deceive men but we cannot deceive the Holy Ghost, and our blessings will not be eternal unless they are also sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise. The Holy Ghost is one who reads the thoughts and hearts of men, and gives his sealing approval to the blessings pronounced upon their heads. Then it is binding, efficacious, and of full force.”

    I guess that’s what happens when you have men quoting men instead of men quoting God…

  13. iterry54

    Chris, I guess that’s the problem when you don’t understand the doctrines clearly and you are not a true prophet. If we had true prophets of God then the doctrines could be clearly explained. Instead they assume things and lead the people astray. The Holy Ghost does not do any sealing. Christ does the sealing because He is the second comforter. Joseph Smith understood this but apparently the current leaders don’t. You can find this all explained in Teaching of the prophet JS page 149. The members these days have to be careful when they listen to these leaders because there is so much false doctrine that is taught. That one counselor Uchtdorf is particularly bad at understanding doctrine. He preaches false stuff all the time and the members just lap it all up. IT

  14. Jaron Ahlmann

    I terry I wasn’t referring to church leaders after JS I was referring to the thousands of pages of scripture contained in the Bible and BOM. When Jesus visited the nephites, the climax of the BOM, he didn’t teach them about the 2nd comforter or making your calling and election sure. He taught them the first principles and ordinances and how to be like him. Shouldn’t His teachings trump all others including JS?

  15. Bishop Anon Post author

    Or maybe He was teaching them calling and election (I.e. His appearance to them) and was trying to get them to understand that the “basic principles” of the gospel are much more profound and effective than we realize in accomplishing that end…. Just a thought.

  16. Bishop Anon Post author

    Thanks Terry. It is interesting that Christ has Nephi and the apostles get baptized again. And that they pray to receive the Holy Ghost… Most of us Mormons would say that someone of Nephi and company’s caliber would not “need” such a basic reintroduction to simple teachings and entry level ordinances and that they already had the Holy Ghost…

  17. Jaron Ahlmann

    It says there were disputations about the manner of baptism. Maybe Nephi, a prophet, hadn’t been baptized correctly and needed to be “rebaptized” in the way the Lord authorized. Maybe Nephi was fallible and erred in that point.

  18. Bishop Anon Post author

    Interesting thought. My guess is that Nephi already had his calling and election made sure before. After all, Angels minister to him daily and he raises his neither from the dead. Seems to indicate He knows God. I doubt he erred in the doctrine of Christ.

  19. 12 Visions

    Be careful what you ask for. When you receive the “knowledge” of the Second Comforter, then you have faith no more. You are “stuck” with whatever task or assignment given to you, and you must be obedient. This means that you are acted upon and not acting for yourself.

    High priests act in great faith… which is hoping for things unseen (with some supporting evidence, but they get to decide for themselves). Angels desire to look into this high priesthood, but are unable to because of the stakes they have put down for themselves. Thus, they become messengers of God’s word and are exact in how it is carried out. Whereas the HP’s don’t wait for the Second Comforter to be instructed, but have the law “written in their hearts” and do the righteous work anyway, not “knowing.”

    Anything can become an idol. Anything. Especially if it takes us away from God’s stated will.

  20. Dave
    But it does not stop there. To what end is the Holy Ghost given?
    6 Behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and there will be no more doctrine given until after he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh. And when he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh, the things which he shall say unto you shall ye observe to do.

  21. Dave
    But it does not stop there. To what end is the Holy Ghost given?
    6 Behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and there will be no more doctrine given until after he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh. And when he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh, the things which he shall say unto you shall ye observe to do

  22. Jaron Ahlmann

    We will have to agree to disagree. The more righteous part of the people were spared destruction but even these righteous people argued, apparently, about the manner of baptism. If the prophet Nephi had taught the true manner of baptism to a righteous people wouldn’t they accept such an important doctrine willingly and without argument? If they did not perhaps the teaching had been lost . My point is that we can’t assume that anyone rebaptized. That would fit the paradigm of those who believe in rebaptism but we don’t have enough scriptural evidence to support that belief. Again I would ask if making your calling and election sure and seeing the Lord is absolutely essential to salvation then why did the Savior not say so himself? He seems to suggest the opposite in fact in that He says that “more blessed” are those who have not seen him but believe on the words and testimony of those who have.

  23. Jaron Ahlmann

    Well said 12 visions. An obsession with seeing the Lord can certainly become an idol because as you say it can takes us away from being obedient to God’s will. Do we really think that to the Lord the act of seeing Him is so important that we are willing to neglect our friends and families and the other blessings that he has given us to help us draw closer to Him and be more familiar with Him. Without faith, hope, and charity what good is seeing Him anyway? Charity being the greatest of all gifts. Excellent point. Thanks for sharing !

  24. MC


    What are you trying to say? Are you saying that the doctrine of Christ is faith, repentance, baptism, the gift of the Holy Ghost and that’s it for an individual until they have a personal visit from Christ? Or are you saying that the above steps are the doctrine of Christ for the decendents of Lehi until he manifested himself unto THEM in the flesh when he visited them after his ascension?

    The way I understand that passage you shared it is the latter. One of the reasons it has to be the latter is that at the time Nephi made that statement Christ did not yet have a body of flesh and so it would be impossible for him to manifest himself unto anyone in the flesh.

  25. iterry54

    Dave, So I clicked on your link and lo and behold it led me to the so-called 2nd book of commandments. This is false doctrine from a false prophet. The Lord warned you that in the last days there would be lots of false prophets among the people. These are not revelations from God. If I were you I would delete,erase,destroy everything this guys has been printing. IT

  26. Ellee

    I’ve always thought that a new baptism was necessary because Jesus introduced a new law, basically a new church. They were to stop living the Law of Moses and live by the new principles Jesus introduced in the Sermon at the Temple. Baptism at that point shows to me they were covenanting to live the new law.

  27. MC


    I have always looked at it the same way you do. The old law was fulfilled and a new law was being put in place. This is why they were rebaptized when Christ came.

    I don’t think Denver Snuffer and the remnant can claim the same thing, though. A new covenant won’t be established requiring rebaptism until the one mighty and strong appears and Zion, the New Jerusalem, is established. At least that’s the way I understand it.

  28. Chris Chandler

    Jaron –

    A few thoughts: An obsession with “seeing the Lord” without knowing (and doing) His mind and will certainly lead to frustration on the part of the person, but I disagree that it becomes “an idol because…it takes us away from being obedient to God’s will”. Since when did being obsessed with “seeing the Lord” and NOT “being obedient to God’s will” become mutually INCLUSIVE?

    If someone seeking the face of the Lord doesn’t understand that in order to come into His presence you need to be seeking to be like Him by knowing and doing His mind and will, then such seeking won’t benefit them with immediate gratification.

    However, it may open the door for the Lord to teach them what to do to come into His presence. That is my personal experience. Since His vision to me on September 28, 2015 – which, by the way, did not give me the promise of eternal life (ie. calling and election made sure) – but He came to a sincere cry by one of His sons. He has been teaching me since then what I need to understand/know, be, and do since then to come into His presence (ie. Second Comforter). It has been line upon line – and often not easy.

    The vision of God the Father and Jesus Christ to Joseph at the age of 14 did not give him his calling and election either at that time. God can appear to anyone, at any time, under any circumstances (whether involved in sin or not). Don’t limit Him to what you think you know by what you have read. You cannot keep God in a religious box. I had about 30 years of religious thinking change in one instance and I reflect on it and His face often.

    That being said, I agree that if someone is neglecting family and others as well as the development of important virtues like faith, hope, and charity they damn themselves, but they certainly haven’t become “idol” worshipers because they are still looking directly to God – at least trying. Idolatry is when you place anything as a go-between you and God. They just want a certain “gift” from God. That of “seeing”…and actually to think about it, what’s wrong with that. That is what we’re supposed to be doing anyway. When Jesus says that we will do the things He has done and also says that He does nothing except what He sees the Father doing…what is the implication for us? I follow directions much better if someone “shows” me than someone “tells” me any day…

    However, 12 Visions position that “You are “stuck” with whatever task or assignment given to you, and you must be obedient. This means that you are acted upon and not acting for yourself.” is NOT accurate or true. No agency is removed, just different consequences for disobedience. The way I discipline my two year old is much different than how I discipline my fifteen year old.

  29. 12 Visions

    The “stuck” reference is a quote from a prominent author and speaker who has received the Second Comforter.

    Of course there is agency to obey or not, but getting directions is different than becoming informed and acting on faith/hope (see Ether 12). But if receiving comfort and instruction is what works best for you, then I certainly don’t want to discourage it.

    PS – Ultimately, Joseph Smith’s life was forfeit, Sydney Ribbon went crazy, and the church was cursed into the wilderness because they weren’t obedient. Maybe it’s time we stopped behaving like teenagers (or two year olds).

  30. iterry54

    Hi Jeff the Ephraimite,

    I love your name “the Ephraimite”. This is one of the doctrines that the Church no longer believes. Early in the Church both the leaders and the members knew that they were gathered Ephraim in the last days. This was one of the reasons for the patriarch in the Church to declare lineage. At some point about 40 years ago some CES type got the idea that we were nothing more than a bunch of gentiles adopted into Israel and became Ephraim. They get that idea from a misinterpretation of the word gentile in the Book of Mormon. I had one of these CES teachers as a gospel doctrine in my ward and he propagated this doctrine.

    The true doctrine is found throughout the scriptures that in the last days the Lord would cause Ephraim who was scattered among the non-Israelites in North Europe would be gathered. The best scripture that discusses this gathering can also be found in the Book of Mormon in Jacob 5 where the natural branches of the olive tree or Ephraim will be grafted into the vineyard of the Lord again. This is found in Jacob 5:63. And so the point is the members (at least before the apostasy was complete in 1978) were gathered Ephraim and not a bunch of Non-Israelite gentiles that were converted and then changed into Ephraim.

    You obviously are aware of this false doctrine that has crept into the Church over the years. This is just another example of one of the doctrines that the Church no longer accepts nor believes. Much more could be said about this and what the Church is doing to dilute the blood of Ephraim as a result of the apostasy. IT

  31. Bishop Anon Post author

    I think you make a good point for why Christ might have His disciples, who were already baptized, be re-baptized. I don’t know the answer. But I do think that whatever clarification Christ gave on the subject, was not intended for those who already knew the Lord but rather those still aspiring to be redeemed and their posterity. It’s interesting that Jesus does not reveal anything new here… He seems to only confirm what He taught to Nephi 600 years prior. My guess is that in addition to this point made by you Ellee, Christ was focusing on clarifying the simplicity of the most important doctrine to make sure there were no further disputations regarding its potential power and purpose. If Christ were to come today I think He would do the same thing in the Church. Look at the wonderful disagreements we are able to have on the subject despite all being of the same faith and same baptism.

  32. Jeff the Ephraimite

    Hello IT, it sounds like you might be an Ephraimite as well. I am sad to say that today’s LDS patriarchs are without the priesthood and wouldn’t be able to determine Ephraim lineage. The Tribe of Ephraim was given the rights to the priesthood. Joseph Smith sent his apostles to places like Liverpool, England where Ephraimites were gathered and would recognize the message of the Book of Mormon.

    When you go across Utah and other Mormon settlements you will find Ephraim in abundance. The main purpose of the church was to gather Ephraim. Unfortunately, Ephraim has been lured by the grasp of Commerce and greed. Ephraimite women rule over their husbands. Ephraim children are truly lost because of their sins to remain in Babylon.

    What I have gathered over time is that Ephraim is Israel today, the righteous remnant usually represented by the number 5. (5 pools of Bethesda in John, 5 loaves, 5 wise virgins) Why the church is going beyond Ephraim is beyond me. I believe that to be of the House of Ephraim and stay in Babylon will bring greater condemnation to the men who could be righteous High Priests if they choose the Lord’s admonition to read the words of Isaiah. When you read these great prophets of old, who else are these great men talking to in the latter days? The House of Israel yes, but I would say more towards Ephraim.

  33. Brent Crash Allen

    Joseph taught a very simple plan that includes the opportunity to be close to, and follow Christ.

    Today’s church encourages a relationship with bishop, stake president, and church authority.

    Used to be you were saved by Christ. Now the church is the only saving vehicle.

  34. Jaron Ahlmann

    Thanks for your response. You ask since when did seeing the Lord and not obeying gods will become mutually inclusive? Let’s say you’re overly critical of a leader and you refuse to try and speak to that leader about what you think that leader has done wrong. You don’t follow the counsel in D&C 121 about reproving with sharpness and showing an increase in love afterwards. But, you believe that making your calling and election sure is the most important thing to obtain in this life. Let’s say you refuse to pay tithing because you believe the LDS church is corrupt – you ignore the commandment to tithe but still insist that you must see the Lord. Let’s say you don’t make an effort to reach out to people you’ve offended. These are real examples. Can’t you see that without charity you are nothing? If you want to obsess over something obsess over gaining charity. I would invite you to pray for it more than anything else. Without THAT we are truly damned.

  35. iterry54

    Jaron, Interesting thoughts about what it takes to get your calling and election made sure. Have you considered the fact that since the Church is in apostasy and the Lord is very displeased with the Church at this time that if you pay your tithing to such and organization you are actually supporting Lucifer’s program instead of the Lord’s? Have you considered that aspect. I see the Church as something that would be similar to the Lord’s Church at say 325ad at the time of the Nicea creed. The Church was in complete apostasy at that time of course. So since it’s in apostasy why would any of the laws and the Church be inforce? Answer – they weren’t at that time because the Church was dead. Same thing is true today. The Church is in complete apostasy and so there will have to be another restoration. Saying that means also of course that presently nobody is receiving their calling and election made sure. The scriptures make pretty clear that the Church is in apostasy and the Lord does not approve of the leaders. The same is true of the members who support the apostate Church. The only thing that can be done right now is recognize the apostasy and wait for the cleaning of the Church. It will be restored soon and those apostates will be dispatched. That is all that can be done for now. But supporting them is not the answer. That is like saying there is a point system and if you go through the motions of sustaining and supporting wickedness that somehow you will be rewarded. That isn’t the way it works. You must recognize first that something is wrong and not support it. IT

  36. Chris Chandler

    Jaron –

    I read your responses and appreciate the thought that went into them. However, while possibly ‘real’ they seem quite extreme and don’t appear to represent ANY of the people I know who are seeking the face of the Lord.

    In D&C 93:1 the Lord gives five specific principles/teachings that if followed will allow someone to “see [His] face and know [Him]”. They are:
    – Forsake your sins
    – Come unto Christ
    – Obey His voice
    – Call on His name
    – Keep His commandments

    Obviously, we could argue what each of those means (which would be pointless), but ultimately it would be individual. For you, forsaking your sins might be different than mine; however, we would both be seeking to forsake our sins…for what? The promise of “seeing” and “knowing” Christ.

    John 17:3 says that “eternal life” consists of knowing God and His Son Jesus Christ. It does not say knowing ABOUT them. To know someone requires you to spend time with them, eating with them, seeing how they treat their family, etc. Not just memorizing great scriptures about their attributes.

    The challenge I have with your thinking is NOT that you are wrong in saying that someone needs to develop similar Christlike attributes, but in your implication that people who seek the face of Christ do it at the exclusion of developing such attributes. Of course, if one seeks the face of Christ at the exclusion of developing love, serving others, keeping His commandments, then that does not make sense. But nobody I know who is seriously seeking the face of Christ does that. They are people who like you and I are probably struggling sinners/saints who just are trying to rely on Him more than ever to speak the promise of eternal life (rather than continuing to hope their relationship with pretentious men who have no power to save…”for the Holy One of Israel is the keeper of the gate, and he employeth no servant there” (2 Nephi 9:41)).

    Sorry for my super long response. I wish I had the ability to clarify my thoughts in more condensed words, but alas…that was never a gift of mine…

    Anyway, I feel like we’re probably on the same page and saying the same thing in different ways. Maybe not, but please consider that not all who seek the face of Christ (which is kind of how I felt like you and 12 Visions were trying to lump such people into a group) are doing so at the exclusion of and detriment to other important things…

  37. iterry54

    To compromise on certain “lesser” freedoms is to compromise on beliefs and doctrine. That’s what freedom of religion is. All this philosophy is doing is providing an excuse for the Church to change its doctrine to comply with PC or the whims of society or the government.

  38. Heber

    Saying, ” … when we are out of this mortal coil, almost everyone will accept the Gospel.” is not the same as saying, “Yes, if we have ETERNITY to ETERNALLY progress then all of us will eventually be exalted.” Lorenzo did not say the second part. Accepting the gospel is not the same as gaining exaltation. Every knee will bow to Christ eventually. That means they will accept that His gospel is the truth. That does not mean Lorenzo Snow did not believe D&C 76 and what it teaches. Please do not throw out Lorenzo so fast.

  39. iterry54

    Heber, I don’t know where you get that false doctrine from because it certainly isn’t found in the scriptures. You’ve misinterpreted and skewed the scriptures to make it fit. This is why there was war in heaven because most knew they could not be exalted. If everybody eventually gets exalted then there would have been no need for a war in heaven. All one would have to do is hang out in the Telestial world for a while then gradually rise to the others. This is nonsense and false doctrine.

    There is no progression from kingdom to kingdom. Most go to the Telestial and that is where they stay throughout eternity. This is explained clearly in the D&C in section 76. They cannot dwell with God and Christ worlds without end (D&C 76:112). Only a very very small percentage will be exalted because straight is the gate and narrow the way and FEW there be that find it.

    There is something else that is missed in the scriptures and most do not see or read right over the top of it. If a person accepts the gospel out of this world then the only kingdom they can obtain in the Terrestrial. They cannot be exalted (D&C 76:74–75). It is very curious that the Church in the last days has done all this temple work for people that lived long before the gospel was restored. The D&C explains that they can only attain the Terrestrial kingdom. Therefore all of the temple work that is being done is a complete waste of time. Let me quote it for those who might not believe this:
    D&C 76:73–74: And also they who are the spirits of men kept in prison, whom the Son visited, and preached the gospel unto them, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh. vs 74 Who received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it.

    I know this is new to some here but that is what the scriptures say. Very few are exalted. Most men go to the Telestial kingdom and stay there for eternity. Those who do not receive the gospel in this life can only go to the Terrestrial. IT54

  40. James

    ITerry, here’s a correction on your narrow-minded judgement on who will make it to the Celestial kingdom:

    7 Thus came the voice of the Lord unto me, saying: All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God;

    8 Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom;

  41. iterry54

    James, Looks like you have a contradiction in the scriptures. But don’t worry I’ll help you understand the scriptures. D&C 76:73–74 says very clearly James that those people who go to the spirit prison/paradise will end up in the Terrestrial kingdom. That’s a fact. It is true that Joseph Smith received a revelation saying that there are those that would be going to the Celestial. This is only talking about members of the Church and not the rest of the world. It doesn’t even say they are exalted only that they go to the Celestial. The Celestial has 3 levels as you recall. So that is your explanation and clears up the contradiction. People outside the Church do not go to the Celestial kingdom and that is made clear in the D&C.

    That is the reason for the war in heaven because 99% would not be exalted and most will go to the Telestial and some to the Terrestrial.

    My view might be narrow but it is correct. Your way is a contradiction of scripture that makes you somehow feel good about the gospel. That’s fine though if you want to believe in fairy tails. It makes us all feel good, but it is false doctrine. IT

  42. Adam

    Here’s something to consider about Joseph. In The Book of Commandments, which contains the first revelations given to Joseph, God clearly says that he was going to give Joseph ONE gift, and that was to translate the Book of Mormon.

    4:1 Behold, I say unto you, that my servant Martin has desired a witness from my hand, that my servant Joseph has got the things of which he has testified, and borne record that he has received of me.4:2 And now, behold this shall you say unto him:–I the Lord am God, and I have given these things unto my servant Joseph, and I have commanded him that he should stand as a witness of these things, nevertheless I have caused him that he should enter into a covenant with me, that he should not show them except I command him and he has no power over them except I grant it unto him; and he has a gift to translate the book, AND I HAVE COMMANDED HIM THAT HE SHALL PRETEND TO NO OTHER GIFT, FOR I WILL GRANT HIM NO OTHER GIFT.

    Joseph was plainly told that God would grant him no other gift.

    This same revelation was later changed to read as follows in the D&C:

    5:1 Behold, I say unto you, that as my servant Martin Harris has desired a witness at my hand, that you, my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., have got the plates of which you have testified and borne record that you have received of me;5:2 And now, behold, this shall you say unto him—he who spake unto you, said unto you: I, the Lord, am God, and have given these things unto you, my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., and have commanded you that you should stand as a witness of these things;5:3 And I have caused you that you should enter into a covenant with me, that you should not show them except to those persons to whom I commanded you; and you have no power over them except I grant it unto you.5:4 And you have a gift to translate the plates; AND THIS IS THE FIRST GIFT THAT I BESTOWED UPON YOU; and I have commanded that you should pretend to no other gift UNTIL MY PURPOSE IS FULFILLED IN THIS; for I will grant unto you no other gift UNTIL IT IS FINISHED.

    With these revisions made, it opened the door for Joseph to do MORE than what God had commanded. Remember he had ONE gift and that was to translate the Book of Mormon.

    Joseph was clearly warned by the Lord that he would fall if he continued to ignore the counsels of God.

    4 For although a man may have many revelations, and have power to do many mighty works, yet if he boasts in his own strength, and sets at naught the counsels of God, and follows after the dictates of his own will and carnal desires, he must fall and incur the vengeance of a just God upon him. (Doctrine and Covenants, Doctrine and Covenants, D&C 3)

    With the idea of Joseph Smith opening the door to do MORE than what God commanded, lets look at how Jesus defined his doctrine in the Book of Mormon.

    3 Nephi 11
    31 Behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, I will declare unto you my doctrine.
    32 And this is my doctrine, and it is the doctrine which the Father hath given unto me; and I bear record of the Father, and the Father beareth record of me, and the Holy Ghost beareth record of the Father and me; and I bear record that the Father commandeth all men, everywhere, to repent and believe in me.
    33 AND WHOSO BELIEVETH IN ME, AND IS BAPTIZED, THE SAME SHALL BE SAVED; and they are they who shall inherit the kingdom of God.
    34 And whoso believeth not in me, and is not baptized, shall be damned.
    35 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and I bear record of it from the Father; and whoso believeth in me believeth in the Father also; and unto him will the Father bear record of me, for he will visit him with fire and with the Holy Ghost.
    36 And thus will the Father bear record of me, and the Holy Ghost will bear record unto him of the Father and me; for the Father, and I, and the Holy Ghost are one.
    37 And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and become as a little child, and be baptized in my name, or ye can in nowise receive these things.
    38 And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and be baptized in my name, and become as a little child, or ye can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God.
    39 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and whoso buildeth upon this buildeth upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.
    40 And WHOSO SHALL DECLARE MORE OR LESS THAN THIS, AND ESTABLISH IT FOR MY DOCTRINE, THE SAME COMETH OF EVIL, and is not built upon my rock; but he buildeth upon a sandy foundation, and the gates of hell stand open to receive such when the floods come and the winds beat upon them.

    Jesus makes it clear that salvation is obtained through repenting, believing in him and being baptized. In verse 40 Jesus warns that, “WHOSO SHALL DECLARE MORE OR LESS THAN THIS, AND ESTABLISH IT FOR MY DOCTRINE, THE SAME COMETH OF EVIL…”

    Joseph introduced a number of “saving ordinances” that are MORE than what Jesus defined as his doctrine.

    When Jesus ministered in Jerusalem and when he ministered to the Nephites he never mentions genealogy work, sealings, endowments, work for the dead, etc. Why? Because they are NOT part of his doctrine.

    If your desire is to come unto Christ, the only way to arrive at the Tree of Life is to cling to the iron rod, or the word of God. Joseph was given ONE gift and that was to translate the Book of Mormon. He ignored the counsels of God and sought to do MORE than what was commanded. He went against the doctrine of Christ and declared that salvation required MORE than what Jesus introduced. And Jesus said anyone that declared more than his simple, saving doctrine “cometh of evil.”

    With this in mind, let’s refer back to Moroni’s words to Joseph.

    Joseph Smith—History 1:33
    33 He called me by name, and said unto me that he was a messenger sent from the presence of God to me, and that his name was Moroni; that God had a work for me to do; and that my name should be had for good AND EVIL among all nations, kindreds, and tongues, or that it should be both good AND EVIL spoken of among all people.

    Joseph name will be had for GOOD because he accomplished the work that God gave him to translate the Book of Mormon. His name will be had for EVIL because he ignored the counsels of God and sought to establish MORE than the simple doctrine of Christ.

  43. iterry54

    Ahhh BS Adam, Joseph was a great prophet of God throughout his life. He sealed that testimony with his own blood. He had his calling and election made sure as the Lord declared to him in D&C 132:49. Joseph wasn’t an apostate and he did do what the Lord told him to do or he would not have received this revelation. This was a true revelation from God. The temple ordinances were all correct when Joseph received them. They were only corrupted when Hinckley came along.

    There are a bunch of phony prophets running around today. I hope you aren’t going to tell me now that someone else replaced Joseph like that phony Robert Crossfield.

  44. Adam


    It’s easy to say BS, but if you believe in the Book of Mormon, then surely you understand secret oaths and covenants come from Satan.

    26 Now behold, those secret oaths and covenants did not come forth unto Gadianton from the records which were delivered unto Helaman; but behold, they were put into the heart of Gadianton by that same being who did entice our first parents to partake of the forbidden fruit (Helaman 6)

    Swearing, oaths and secret covenants are NOT part of Christ’s gospel.

    33 And again it is written, thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths; 34 But verily, verily, I say unto you, SWEAR NOT AT ALL; neither by heaven, for it is God’s throne; 35 Nor by the earth, for it is his footstool; 36 NEITHER SHALT THOUGH SWEAR BY THY HEAD, because thou canst not make one hair black or white; 37 But let your communication be Yea, yea; Nay, nay; for whatsoever cometh of more than these is evil. (3Nep 12:33-37)

    12 But above all things, my brethren, SWEAR NOT, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, NEITHER BY ANY OTHER OATH: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation. (James 5:12)

    10 For the land is full of adulterers; for BECAUSE OF SWEARING the land mourneth; the pleasant places of the wilderness are dried up, and their course is evil, and their force is not right. 11 For both prophet and priest are profane; yea, IN MY HOUSE HAVE I FOUND THEIR WICKEDNESS, saith the Lord. 12 Wherefore their way shall be unto them as slippery ways in the darkness: they shall be driven on, and fall therein: for I will bring evil upon them, even the year of their visitation, saith the Lord. (Jer 23:10–12)

    God does not work in secret.

    9 I HAVE NOT SPOKEN IN SECRET, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I the Lord speak righteousness, I declare things that are right. (Isa 45:19)

    16 Come ye near unto me; I HAVE NOT SPOKEN IN SECRET; from the beginning, from the time that it was declared have I spoken; and the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me. (1Nep 20:16 and Isa 48:16)

    19. For the Lord worketh NOT IN SECRET COMBINATIONS… (Ether 8)

    Secret oaths, secret covenants and swearing are practiced in Mormon temples and are an affront to Christ’s doctrine.

    If Joseph was a great prophet why did he introduce secret oaths, swearing and covenants that are against the simple doctrine of Christ?

    The scriptures are clear that salvation is obtained in ONE way: faith in Christ, repentance and baptism.

    Mormon 9:23
    23 And he that believeth and is baptized SHALL BE SAVED, but he that believeth not shall be damned;

    3 Nephi 11:33
    33 And whoso believeth in me, and is baptized, the same SHALL BE SAVED; and they are they who shall inherit the kingdom of God.

    Moroni 7:34
    34 And he hath said: Repent all ye ends of the earth, and come unto me, and be baptized in my name, and have faith in me, that ye MAY BE SAVED.

    The Bible and Book of Mormon are very consistent in declaring the way salvation is obtained and it NEVER includes any other “saving ordinances.” Why? Because anything MORE than what Christ taught as his doctrine “cometh of evil.”

  45. iterry54

    These are your interpretations Adam. The fact is Lucifer often steals things from the Lord. He is a thief and stole these oaths. Just because Lucifer mentions them does not mean anything. He claims to be the son-of-god and appeared to Eve in the garden as an angel of light.

    The ordinances have been around since the beginning of time Adam. Hugh Nibley wrote about this in his book the Joseph Smith papyri. So you are incorrect in assuming that the ordinances came from Lucifer which is what you are asserting. Also there is nothing in the ordinances that is against the simple doctrine of Christ. You simply do not understand what you are talking about. You obviously do not understand the ordinances because you don’t accept them.

    So what religion are you Adam? A Evang? Fundy Mormon? You obviously aren’t LDS. So I’m curious. IT

  46. G.azelem

    Very interesting discussion.

    May I suggest to Adam to read over 2nd Nephi 3. It is there we have the prophecies pertaining to Joseph’s calling. If you believe that Joseph was in fact called to bring forth the BOM, you might want to consider what the BOM actually says about Joseph. He was called to do MANY great things, like restoring Israel. (Oops, I did your homework for you.)

    You’re obviously baffled by how crazy things turned out. It’s easy to write the whole church off, which i have no issue with. However, rejecting the revelations of Jesus Christ as contained in the 1833 book of commandments and the 1844 doctrine and covenants is another story. Rejecting the word of God is a big deal. You don’t want to be classed among those that Nephi prophesied would accept the BOM, but say they, “need no more.”

    In reference to Hugh Nibley’s research that Ira pointed to that some how proves the validity of the endowment– all I’ve got to say is ask why you think that random stuff Nibley digs up is relevant? All he ever did was prove that all cultures have their spooky chanting ritual…. I myself look for the ordinances of salvation in the standard works..which does not include ANYTHING similar to what the LDS endowment is.

  47. iterry54

    Gaz – Interesting take on Nibley’s information. It was just an off hand comment. If you believe Joseph was a prophet then you out to be able to accept the temple ordinances as originally revealed. Hugh Nibley simply pointed out that these ordinances have been revealed from time to time and have been dispersed through the different cultures of the world.

    But as you pointed out you’ve found the ordinances of salvation in the standard works? Well that’s good because according to an ancient prophet by the name of Isaiah 24:5 tells us that the ordinances have been changed and the the everlasting covenant broken. Who was Isaiah speaking to? He was speaking to Israel in the last days. Who has the ordinances? Israel or Ephraim has them in the last days. It was Hinckley who single handedly changed the ordinances. Hinckley was in charge of the ordinances from the time of David O. McKay and he is the one who recommended and later made many of the major changes.

    The point is the ordinances are mentioned in the scriptures and they have been changed as prophesied and are now invalid as Isaiah points out. That to me is validation that they were (not now) valid. IT

  48. G.azelem

    Hinckley single handedly changed the LDS endowment? Come on, you know better than that. Many changes and adjustments have been done to the temple ordinance, since 1836 onward. What about the oath of vengeance to avenge for the blood of Joseph and Hyrum? Obviously Joseph didn’t include that bit. Brigham made lots of changes, and Heber J. grant made changes too.

    Section 110 affirms that there was an endowment in the Kirtland temple. Yet there was no weird ritual involved. There was a washing, and anointing. That was all that was necessary. To implicate hinkley as changing the ordinance is absurd. Joseph and Brigham clearly already did that.

    However I suspect that Joseph was commanded to change the ordinances, including the baptismal prayer. He did this, but only once the everlasting covenant was broken, like you have mentioned.

    Section 42 says that the covenant of consecration was a covenant that could not be broken, and another section says that by breaking the covenant, the person becomes delivered over to the buffetings of Satan. Truly this has occurred.

    The oh so marvellous endowment… tells the participant if they don’t live up to the covenants they make, they are in satans power.

    One covenant made is to live the law of the gospel, section 42, which contains consecration and monogamy. Because we are not living consecration, even though we have covenanted to do so, we have been put in satans power. Joseph was teaching us this when he devised the ritual.

    It was not symbolic of receiving God’s power… it is symbolic of our awful situation.

  49. iterry54

    Gaz. The changes that really meant the death of the ordinances occurred when Hinckley took charge. Those were the changes that really meant something. Those minor adjustments were just that – minor and did not have any effect on the validity of the endowment. When Hinckley took over that changed. He made major changes to the sealing, endowment and finally the washing and anointing. Isaiah 24:5 confirms that the ordinances were changed and the covenant broken. We had those weird ordinances since the days of Joseph Smith. Where have you been all that time? What religion do you represent? It certainly isn’t Mormonism because those ordinances have been there the entire time from Joseph on down.

    The ordinances were restored in the Kirtland temple by Elijah. That is when they were received. The reason we don’t have a full written history of them is because these are the oracles. The name means they are transmitted orally. That is why you don’t know the full story of the ordinances. It’s odd that you would implicate Joseph because he clearly taught that they weren’t to be changed. Brigham did make some adjustments but those were minor adjustments as I mentioned.

    I think you are confused about the word endowment. Was the Lord speaking of THE endowment being performed in the Kirtland temple or was he speaking of being Endowed with knowledge and power in the Kirtland temple. The idea that somehow because THE endowment was not performed there somehow negates the ordinances is absurd. We’ve had the ordinances since the time of Joseph Smith and that is a fact. So that is why I mentioned to you Isaiah 24:5 because Isaiah saw that the ordinances would be changed and made invalid.

    I’m curious – since you obviously don’t believe Joseph Smith was a prophet of God – what religion do you represent? Are you one of the early breakoff religions like Strangite, or community of Christ?

  50. theworkofthefather

    *I think you are confused about the word endowment. Was the Lord speaking of THE endowment being performed in the Kirtland temple or was he speaking of being Endowed*

    Who says there even is THE endowment that we’re supposed to have….

    I really don’t think I’m confused. What about the apostles of Jesus Christ, when they were told to tarry in Jerusalem to receive their endowment? Did they watch a re-enactment of the garden of eden story with characters of themselves in it!? Who put that on for them??

    What’s the point in making covenants when you covenant to keep all of God’s commandments when you’re baptized?

    Is it so crazy that the endowment Jesus referred to– and modern revelation referred to– was simply the bestowal of the fulness of the Holy Ghost as it was on the day of Pentecost? That was clearly THE endowment.

    The Holy Ghost is referred to multiple times as the “heavenly gift”. We have been warned to stay away from the evil gift. What gift could be parading itself as the doctrine of Christ? Obviously the endowment, which has replaced the baptism of fire, since the church was rejected of God in Nauvoo,

    You asked me what religion I represent…I represent none. I’m patiently waiting for the church of God to be restored to the earth, and for true priesthood messengers that will bind up the law and seal up the testimony.


  51. iterry54

    Well that clarifies things because you certainly didn’t sound like LDS or former LDS. I see this blog as a place to discuss LDS beliefs and how they have apostatized from what was revealed to the prophet Joseph Smith. The apostasy started early but the priesthood wasn’t lost until 1978 when they pretended to receive a revelation and give the priesthood to the blacks. But up until then the Church had not been lost. The ordinances were in effect up to around that time. As the apostasy progressed the ordinances were all changed and made invalid.

    I do not believe you have the entire story as told in the scriptures. There are many nuggets of truth there of course as you’ve pointed out, but not the entire story and that is why I believe you are on the wrong track. I think it is quite possible the ancient apostles were given the endowment, and the proof of that is found in Nibley’s writing where he refers to several ancient writings by the ancient Church fathers that explain the endowment. Where did they get it from? They are quite similar to the endowment today – well – that is before Hinckley changed them. So a rejection of these things in my view is a rejection of the further light and exalting ordinances the Lord sent many years ago through His prophet Joseph Smith.

    I’m not sure what your purpose is to chat on this blog because it chronicles the recent apostasy of the Church. I do not believe Joseph Smith lied nor was a fallen prophet. The apostasy did begin with Brigham Young however but that early apostasy mainly involved them becoming business men and fighting between the 12 apostles and the 1st presidency. Not the changing of the ordinances – that came 100 years later and this is what Isaiah was talking about because Isaiah according to 2 Nephi 25:7–8 is fulfilled in the last days. And in the last days is when we would understand the prophecies of Isaiah. That is completely true and Isaiah is understandable as evidenced in Isaiah 24:5 where the ordinances would be changed and made invalid.

    I agree with your last statement and I too am waiting for the Church of the 1st born to be restored to earth again through the Davidic King who is John the Beloved. He is the one mighty and strong who will set in order the house of God (D&C 85:7).

    Good luck in your search, IT

  52. theworkofthefather

    *I’m not sure what your purpose is to chat on this blog because it chronicles the recent apostasy of the Church.*

    My purpose is to document that the apostasy is not recent. Modern revelation proves that the church came out of the wilderness in 1830, but that by 1836, it was back in the wilderness again.

    It was only until then that racism and polygamy and a masonic endowment introduced itself.

    *So a rejection of these things in my view is a rejection of the further light and exalting ordinances the Lord sent many years ago through His prophet Joseph Smith.*

    The Saints rejected all light when they failed to live the law of the gospel as contained in Section 42.

    How logical is it for God to entrust the Saints with more commandments and ordinances when they failed to live the original ones given?

    The church clearly declined spiritually. Joseph could not receive ‘thus saith the Lord’ revelations, because the Lord was done speaking to the church, because it was rejected of him.

  53. iterry54

    Okay Gaz, So what happened then in 1836? Where did the Church go at that point? I’m sure you became a member of that Church or organization. You therefore do not believe Joseph was a prophet of God after 1836. So then you have never been LDS. So again I ask – what religion do you represent? You said earlier that you had none. Was there one established by the Lord in after 1836? And if so then who was the prophet of said movement? If there was none then the Church completely died in 1836 in your view and only lasted 6 years. That’s a pretty poor performance on the part of the Lord to establish His Church only to have it die 6 years later.

    BTW I reject your assertion that the Church died then. Later revelations are filled with the metaphorical language of the Lord which is a mark of true revelation. The apostasy did begin after Joseph Smith but it did not die until much later. We had the priesthood up until 1978 and I’m a witness to that fact because I saw the gifts of the spirit in the Church at that time. After that time they were all gone and so I know that 1978 was the year the Church was driven back into the wilderness. The righteous remnant that remain today do you sustain the wickedness of the Church and are simply waiting for the restoration as promised. But we aren’t following some other organization that was set up after 1836.


  54. theworkofthefather

    *BTW I reject your assertion that the Church died then [1836]. Later revelations are filled with the metaphorical language of the Lord which is a mark of true revelation.*

    Besides Section 132, I believe all revelations received after 1836 were true. Joseph Smith was always a “true prophet”. I think all the revelations document the downward trajectory of the church.

    There has not been a single true church nor a prophet since Joseph Smith.

    The church of God, which is gathered and consecrated, fled into the wilderness in 1835. That’s why Joseph Smith prayed in the Kirtland dedicatory prayer [Section 109] for church to come forth out of the wilderness again.

    *That’s a pretty poor performance on the part of the Lord to establish His Church only to have it die 6 years later.*

    We then both have different views on why God restored the church. The aim was always to establish Zion, and when the Saints could not do this, the church lost the fulness of the priesthood/gospel.

    Yet the reason for this… is because we know that the wheat and the tares were combined.

    Zion was only established amongst the Nephites because all the tares had been destroyed by the earthquakes and other disasters.

    *We had the priesthood up until 1978 and I’m a witness to that fact because I saw the gifts of the spirit in the Church at that time.*

    Hmm, I don’t know what to make of that. I think the gifts of the spirit have always been around in one way or another. I returned home from serving an LDS mission about a year ago, and while on my mission I saw miracles…One example is that we healed the foot of a man who was from India. His brother was carrying him around from room to room– we laid our hands on him, and he stood up and was able to walk fine. For him, and his family even maybe, this was the convincing power that the Hindu religion was false and that only Jesus Christ had power over this earth.

    Did this have anything to do with the church? No. God will always continue to work miracles amongst his people, even if some of them are in the midst of an apostate church.

    Nevertheless, the full and complete signs of true believers (Mark 16:7-) will only return to the earth when the fulness of the priesthood is with them.

    *The righteous remnant that remain today do you sustain the wickedness of the Church and are simply waiting for the restoration as promised. *

    Could you clarify that sentence?


  55. iterry54

    Gaz, now I’m confused. You returned from a mission a year ago? I guess I don’t understand what you believe then. Are you still a member or have you been exed? Why did you go on a mission if you didn’t believe?

    The idea that you have about the Church lost the fullness of the priesthood is not correct. We had the priesthood until 1978. But you somehow believe you still had it a year ago and so this is quite confusing. If the Church lost the priesthood early then how did you have it a year ago. Doesn’t make sense to me. And I don’t believe you understand the Kirtland temple prayer either. Sounds rather confused to me to think that Joseph was praying for another restoration when he was restoring the Church. I think you’ve got that all goofed up.

    The Higher priesthood was taken from the earth in 1978 when the Church faked a revelation giving the priesthood to the blacks. The priesthood was removed at that time. I have my doubts that you healed anybody. There is still something in the Church called prayer of faith but that isn’t the priesthood. I’ve heard others claim healing as well but when all the facts are known then it is obvious that there was no healing. The gift of the Holy Ghost was also taken when the higher priesthood was taken.

    I see the Church as fallen into complete apostasy in 1978. Since then the Church has been in complete free fall. The Church is now closer to that of the Catholic Church than the original Church that was restored through Joseph.

    As far as that last statement – whenever there has been an apostasy at the end of the Church there has always been a righteous remnant. Sometimes the remnant is very small as in the case of Moroni, but there always is one. In our case there will be 144k saved. The bulk of the Church now is completely apostate and are being led down to hell as they say “all is well in Zion”. What are their sins?

    1. Abortion – 3000 abortions a year are conducted in SLC and the Church accepts this for incest, rape, and life and health of the mother which means you can have an abortion for any reason and still be a member in good standing. There have been Bishops who of demanded abortions for unwed mothers in the Church.
    2. Idolatry – This refers to the multiple images of Christ that are plastered everywhere in the Church. They are forbidden in Deut 4:10–20 where it is explained clearly that you are not to have an image of deity.
    3. Changed temple ordinances Isaiah 24:5 – I’ve explained that one. They’ve all been changed now except baptism.
    4. Blacks holding the priesthood – Abraham 1 tells us very clearly that the blacks cannot hold the priesthood and they are of the cursed race. The language is unambiguous and clear, but completely ignored because of the phony revelation in 1978.

    Those are just a few of the sins of Ephraim in the last days. These things among others are leading the members down to hell. If you sustain the leaders then you are sustaining wickedness.


  56. theworkofthefather

    I realized the church was in apostasy while on the mission (August 2014) yet remained and finished it out. So I did not believe I had the priesthood from that point on. All miracles were on the basis of faith. So in your experience I believe it is the same: I think whatever gifts of the spirit you witnessed pre 1978 had nothing to do with the church, because the church no longer existed and was simply a corporation. The fact you haven’t witnessed spiritual gifts post 1978 may have to do with the fact you have been deceived into racist beliefs. I don’t say that to be rude. I myself used to believe Brigham Young was correct in the priesthood ban, so I know where you’re coming from.

    *And I don’t believe you understand the Kirtland temple prayer either. Sounds rather confused to me to think that Joseph was praying for another restoration when he was restoring the Church. I think you’ve got that all goofed up.*

    He had already restored the church, Ira. That’s the difference between you and me. You think Joseph Smith was still restoring stuff in Nauvoo, but he wasn’t. There was nothing more to restore than what had been restored in Kirtland. All the ordinances of salvation/priesthood were already there — everything necessary for Zion. Section 66 affirms that William McLellin had received the fulness of the gospel. The Saints were receiving the Holy Spirit of Promise (Section 88).

    But they failed to redeem Zion, and the church fled back into the wilderness. The Saints lost the fulness of the gospel/priesthood. That’s why Joseph was praying for the church to come back.

    1829– D&C 5 “in this the beginning of the rising up and the coming forth of my church out of the wilderness.”

    1830– D&C 33 “this church have I established and called forth out of the wilderness.”

    1836– D&C 109 “…that thy church may come forth out of the wilderness.”

    In 1830 the church was out of the wilderness; and in 1836 in the dedicatory prayer, the church needed to come forth out of the wilderness again.

    So the apostasy was in 1835, and I postulate that the complete apostasy was in 1841.

    *3. Changed temple ordinances Isaiah 24:5 – I’ve explained that one. They’ve all been changed now except baptism.*

    You’re wrong there. Baptism was changed as well. Guess when? 1835. The baptismal prayer was changed when the church lost the fulness of the priesthood. We no longer used the prayer in the Book of Mormon.

    *4. Blacks holding the priesthood – Abraham 1 tells us very clearly that the blacks cannot hold the priesthood and they are of the cursed race. The language is unambiguous and clear, but completely ignored because of the phony revelation in 1978.*

    Joseph Smith had no problem ordaining a black man to the priesthood.

    *If you sustain the leaders then you are sustaining wickedness.*

    If you sustain the principles of polygamy and Brigham Young-induced racism then it is you who is sustaining wickedness.


  57. iterry54

    You would be wrong about witnessing the priesthood vs faith for healing. What I had pre 1978 was priesthood and I saw those gifts. After 1978 the priesthood was gone and it was very evident. Even today a number of people who are terminally ill go to the GA’s to be healed. None of them ever are healed. In fact I know personally of one case involving Monson where the person died a short time after receiving a blessing from him and promised to live. Before 1978 that was not the case and so since you believe in the apostasy and the priesthood was taken your experience was faith based. More likely your experience was just mind control however because the Hindu’s have as much priesthood as the Church at this point – except for the Aaronic of course.

    No need to worry about calling me a racist because I want to point out a few things to you that Christ, Abraham, and Joseph were all racist too. I’m in good company. You’ve accepted the apostate Church’s idea that Brigham was the source of the ban on the blacks. That is not true. It came from Joseph Smith. He did ordain one person but after that he was told not to by the Lord. That revelation has been suppressed in the Church. But he stopped doing it. But there is much more evidence that this is the case and I want to point out the Pearl of Great Price. This is clear revelation that there is a ban on the priesthood and it came from Joseph Smith not Brigham. The Church lied to the members recently when it says it started with Brigham.

    Abraham 1:27 – Now, Pharaoh being of that lineage by which he could not have the right of Priesthood, notwithstanding the Pharaohs would fain claim it from Noah, through Ham…

    Abraham 1:21 Now the king of Egypt was a descendant from the loins of Ham, and was a partaker of the blood of the Canaanites by birth.

    Vs 23 The land of Egypt being first discovered by a woman, who was the daughter of Ham…

    Vs 24 When this woman discovered the land it was under water, who afterward settled her sons in it; and thus, from Ham, sprang that RACE which preserved the CURSE in the land.

    Gaz it is clear that Joseph Smith taught this doctrine to Brigham. Brigham did not make it up. So if you looking for someone to call a racist go to the source. Abraham is a racist because he wrote all this. Christ is a racist because he called the Canaanite Women who wanted her daughter healed a dog!

    Oh but there is another scripture you might like to look at – it is found in Zechariah 14:21
    …In that day there shall be NO MORE the Canaanite in the house of the Lord of Hosts.

    Gaz you got to get them into the House of the Lord before the Lord can kick them out. These are clear scriptures that tell us that the blacks are a cursed race and do not have right to the priesthood. This has been a great victory on the part of Lucifer to mix the cursed race with Ephraim in the last days. This is apostasy. You obviously don’t believe that so you ought to be happy the Church has gone back on what it said in the beginning.

    Same with polygamy the Church has distanced itself from it but this was true revelation to Joseph Smith. Someday when the Church is restored again there will be polygamy (Isaiah 4:1).

    So Gaz – have you set up your own Church now? Or are you simply waiting for the Lord to correct things. If so what are relying on for that belief?

  58. G.azelem

    The book of Abraham was translated in 1835 and Joseph ordained Elijah Abel in 1836. Obviously he didn’t find those passages applicable. If God had truly intended a ban on priesthood it would be much clearer.

    *In fact I know personally of one case involving Monson where the person died a short time after receiving a blessing from him and promised to live.*

    This reminds me of when Brigham young gave the dedicatory prayer for the polluted Nauvoo Temple– how it went up in flames soon after.

    God will vindicate the truth and his true prophets.

    Polygamy is an abomination and always has been. The verse you refer to in Isaiah is about how polygamy will return again amongst Israel, but not because it’s a good thing.

    2 In that day [that seven women take hold of one man] shall the branch of the Lord be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth shall be excellent and comely for THEM THAT ARE ESCAPED OF ISRAEL.

    The beautiful branch of the Lord is the remnant that escapes the apostate Mormon sects and accepts the new and everlasting covenant. They will reject the counterfeit polygamous everlasting covenant, and disanull the agreement with hell (endowment) that they were deceived into making.

    How could I set up a church? I don’t have the priesthood. I’m simply waiting for the redemption of Zion as promised by the Lord in sections 101 and 103.

    *2. Idolatry – This refers to the multiple images of Christ that are plastered everywhere in the Church. They are forbidden in Deut 4:10–20 where it is explained clearly that you are not to have an image of deity.*

    BTW I strongly agree with you on this point.

  59. iterry54


    It sounds like to me that you’ve found the Church! You need to go back and beg for reinstatement. This is your Church. In your view it isn’t in apostasy now because it accepts blacks into the priesthood, You love your little images of Christ that are forbidden by the 2nd commandment. Great! Keep them and plaster your halls with your Hollywood Jesus – you know the one with the long hair. Feminism is very strong in the Church and you certainly agree with it. I can’t see why you wanted to leave. In my view of what you are saying is there has been a great restoration in the last days and Hinckley, Monson, and Kimball are the new prophets of this new Church. You need to go back crawling on your hands and feet because this is the Church for you.

    As for me – no – The Pearl of Great Price is clear that the Lord forbids the Blacks from having the priesthood. It’s written in Zechariah, Christ did not accept the Black Canaanite and on and on. So you are wrong about that completely because Joseph Smith stopped ordaining blacks and Brigham followed that lead. We can argue this forever – but it’s all clear in the scriptures.

    As for polygamy the Church is monogamous now and so there again – By golly you’ve found the truth! It was only according to you that false prophet Joseph Smith that led the Church into apostasy. It was all the recent inspired leaders who have led the Church out of the Wilderness for so many years. What a beautiful thing! So please – get back to the Church Gaz – you left the wrong Church Gaz – IT

  60. G.azelem

    I said that I agree with you that images of deity are idolatry… I would never hang a picture or watch movies depicting the Savior. And I never once said that Joseph led the church into apostasy. Maybe you should actually read what I say?

    The LDS church is as evil and corrupt now as it was in 1841. The corruption came because the church was delivered over to the buffetings of Satan after failing to establish Zion. I definitely don’t blame Joseph. In fact he is probably the last person to blame.

    105 says the whole church was under condemnation except the first elders. they were the wheat. When the strange act occurs, Angels will gather the wheat from out of Babylon. and then finally the tares will no longer be able to drive the church back into the wilderness.

    Hope to see you when this happens. We both still have much to repent of.

  61. Lilli

    Where did Christ ever condone racism?

    Christ made it very simple to discern true prophets from false ones, for false ones will preach and/or practice ‘contrary’ to his commandments. That eliminates most all prophets throughout history, especially all LDS prophets.

    For there have been few if any prophets in history that have kept Christ’s commandments. Except probably John the Baptist who proved by his ‘actions’ that he was the greatest prophet ever, just as Christ said he was.

    Before we start quoting so called ‘prophets’ (past or present) we should make sure they are actually ‘true’ prophets by using Christ’s standard for such. Anyone can call themselves a prophet and get lots of people to fall for them, even anciently. The way to tell a true prophet is they will only preach Christ’s exact commandments & doctrine, they will not make up their own.

    So 1st and foremost we must study what Christ actually said and he totally condemned things like racism, polygamy, inequality, etc.

  62. Lilli

    I still believe in many things that Joseph Smith taught, for like all the false prophets Christ warned us about, Joseph taught many true and wonderful things, amid all the falsehoods he taught, wrote & published also.

    I only believe in precepts (or prophets) that are in harmony with Christ’s commandments.

    Things like ‘Calling & Election’, the 2nd Comforter, polygamy, racism, inequality of women, paid prophets, using ‘feelings’ as confirmation of truth, etc, etc, are all false things originated thru the false LDS religion and are not taught by Christ.

  63. John


    Normally I stay out of these things, mostly because I believe no one will change their opinion based on a well reasoned online conversation. I wanted to interject here for a moment though and point out a few things that I feel are missing from this. My only hope is that my tone will come across, not as judgmental, not cynical, nor pretentious, but rather inquisitive and interested.

    iterry54 has brought up the war in heaven and has conveyed his understanding of those events as taught by the Church. That is to say, the very primary understanding of such events. We have very scriptural references to Pre-Mortal life in all four of the Standard Works, though the specifics of the “War in Heaven” is only mentioned twice. I wonder when our “Doctrine” of the pre-existence began and when it became so concrete. Is it possible we could have gotten some things wrong?

    Doctrine and Covenants 138: 56–60 The whole section is great, but one snippet “The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God.” What does it mean to be redeemed?

    Ether 3:13 “Because thou knowest these things ye are redeemed from the fall; therefore ye are brought back into my presence; therefore I show myself unto you.”

    Moses 1:39 “This is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.” What does it mean to have eternal life?

    John 17:3 “And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.”

    How can we know God and Jesus Christ, save we should have an intimate relationship with them? How can we do that while eternally confined outside of their presence? Can God fail in his work and glory? Can Christ fail in his work and Glory?

    Doctrine and Covenants 76:76–77 “These are they who receive of his glory, but not of his fulness. These are they who receive of the presence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father.” From these scriptures, we learn that man will inherit (a point in time in the future) and receive according to their works.

    If this is an event that happens, does that mean nothing ever happens to them in the future. You also mentioned 3 Degrees of Glory in the celestial kingdom.

    LDS 101 – Celestial, Terrestrial, Telestial

    We “know” the names of these three (major?) kingdoms of Glory. We also know because of the temple that we are in the Telestial Kingdom right now!! Why don’t we know the names of those 3 kingdoms within the Celestial?

    Typical Answer: They’re not important to know since we should be shooting for exaltation.

    My Question: If they are not important to know, then why bother knowing about the other ones? I mean, I’m not shooting to stay in this Hell, and I don’t want to miss the mark and end up in the Terrestrial Kingdom, so why even know about those?

    Let’s say I make it to the Celestial Kingdom, but don’t become exalted. Wouldn’t that be Hell? I mean, the Celestial Kingdom is living in the presence of the Father. If I am living in the presence of the Father and can’t receive of his fullness (which is contradictory to the scriptures), wouldn’t that be a living Hell for eternity?

    Doctrine and Covenants 130:10 “Then the white stone mentioned in Revelation 2:17, will become a Urim and Thummim to each individual who receives one, whereby things pertaining to a higher order of kingdoms will be made known;”

    If there is no eternal progression through Kingdoms of Glory, why am I given a white stone pertaining to Higher Kingdoms? If only exalted beings can progress, why are white stones “given to each of those who come into the celestial kingdom…”?

    Maybe the “War in Heaven” wasn’t about coming down here with eternal consequences of failure. According to scriptures, it was because Satan wanted to take away Free Agency and exalt himself as greater than God.

    The scriptures say, eternal punishment, and endless woe.

    Doctrine and Covenants 19:6–7, 10 “Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment. Again, it is written eternal damnation; wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory…For, behold, the mystery of godliness, how great is it! For, behold, I am endless, and the punishment which is given from my hand is endless punishment, for Endless is my name.”

  64. iterry54

    Hi John, Some interesting thoughts. Here is one for you to ponder. D&C 76:73–74 – speaking of the Terrestrial kingdom. In verse 73 it says …they who are the spirits of men kept in prison, whom the Son visited, and preached the gospel unto them. 74 – Who received not the testimony of Jesus IN THE FLESH, but afterwards received it.

    So in other words if you do not receive the gospel in this life but afterwards in the spirit world if you’ve been a good person the highest kingdom available is the Terrestrial.

    If this is the case and it certainly does say so – why do temple work including Endowment for anybody before the restoration in 1830 if they cannot be exalted?

  65. MarkinPNW

    Yea, often I have to pray for charity when driving, in order to not have road rage, or cause the other drivers to sin in road rage against my lack of charitable driving!

  66. Pingback: Truth and The Angel Nephi – BOOK OF MORMONISM

  67. SkyBird

    Interesting comments and ideas about what the Prophet Joseph Smith taught and what is taught today in the LDS Church. I’ve been a member all my life and am still a temple going member at 72. My focus is not in the “letter of the law” and all its ordinances and ceremonies (that is all symbolism), it has turned to the “spirit of the law.” I think the best explanation for why we are here is from the LDS Bible Dictionary under the word, “Holiness,” look it up! “Life” is not about what we do but what we “become inside,” when we do what we do. Celestial Glory with Father, is the potential of every person who chooses to “become” a manifestation of holiness, and it’s all about “become” in character a holy person! Its not about race or religion, unless you want a Terrestrial or Telestial Glory.

  68. Laurel Leaf

    Skybird, I wholeheartedly agree with you. The words to the children’s hymn “I Am A Child of God” used to say “…teach me all that I must know…” , was later changed to “…teach me all that I must do…”, and really should say “…teach me all that I must BE…”

    At least that’s the way I sing it now. : )

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