Words matter. When today’s 15 Apostles of the Church use words to describe themselves such as “true messengers, special witnesses, sure witnesses, certain witnesses, prophets, seers, revelators, and apostles” it becomes our sacred duty to determine if they are being misleading or telling the truth. Especially given that we pay for undisclosed salaries and benefits packages and give them 1/10th of all we possess. The duty to discern their words falls upon us members.
They call themselves prophets, seers, and revelators. But whether they prophesy, see, or reveal remains to be seen. In fact, the opposite appears to be true.
Did Brigham prophesy correctly when he said the Church would no longer be true if it abandoned polygamy or gave priesthood to the blacks?
Did Thomas receive a true revelation to not baptize children whose parents have made lifestyle choices we disagree with?
Did Gary receive a revelation to allow for gay leaders in Boy Scouts?
Did Spencer receive a revelation to give blacks the priesthood or was the Church worried it would lose its non-profit status with the IRS?
Where are the additional sections of the Doctrine and Covenants formalizing all the revelations they receive? Where are the prophesies of these men we adulate? Which of them possesses stones through which they see? Why will none of them declare as do prophets of old that they have seen Him even on the right hand of God? Why do they continue to speak in parables using vain and ambiguous language because some things are simply “too sacred” to share?
We have allowed time and tradition to warp and distort the true meaning of words.
I am curious by show of hands (comments) which of you who consider yourselves to be True Blue Mormons, believe that these men see God. Or at least Angels. I have heard the Brethren say that they are sure witnesses of Christ and that they know Him as well as the ancient Apostles. What do you think these words mean? Elder Anderson said at a funeral this last week that his witness was “certain.” What does he mean by this?
Can we at least agree that some of these men lead us to believe, by their words, that they have seen Him? That they converse with Him face to face? And that it would be a grave and tragic issue, if in fact they have not?
I think there is no greater question that can be asked of these men than, “Have you or have you not seen the Lord?” If you have not, then shame on you for leading us to believe that you have! If you have, then where are your revelations? Your expounding of scripture? Your bold testimonies that carry to the hearts of the children of men? Why do you take surveys when you have the keys to revelation? Why are you using our sacred funds to build malls and cities rather than help the poor?
If we have 15 prophets among us, why have we not created Zion? Where are the signs that follow after you? Where are the tongues, the Angels, the miracles, the prophesies, the additional scriptures, or even the doctrinal dissertations?
I do not look forward to the teleprompter talks this next week, written by paid speech writers and assistants who worship them. Parables of pickles and talks about following the Brethren even when they are wrong and of the Old Ship Zion. Same old Ship, different day. To me it has all become noise. Words no longer have meaning. And messages from these men do not have the power to change hearts. They only seek to control and to keep others from entering in.
I invite you to contrast their words to the words of scripture. If ye lack wisdom, ask God, not men. Follow Christ, not the Brethren. He is a real Man. Sadly “they” are all effeminate impostors. Might as well be Profits, Sewers, and Elevators, for they have corrupted the Holy Church of God, and their titles no longer mean anything.
God bless you as you seek Him, not them.
While the forthright tone of your comments is startling, my observations align. Conference weekend, just a year ago for me was always hushed and reverent, filled with anticipation and profound awe at the potential impact the words these gentleman would share. That was after 50 years as an enthusiastic convert who studied endlessly, prayed fervently, followed the “prophets” obediently, fasted for spirit and strength, served in my family, the church and the community.
My reverence today “the word” is not for the “arm of flesh” words from these men, but rather for the words given me by true prophets, Joseph, Moses, Elijah, Hosea, Abraham, John, Peter, Paul and others of reknown. Their words call me to repentance, bring me to tears, fill me with the Holy Ghost (when I am worthy) and clearly tell me God and Christ want me to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, comfort the ill and afflicted, not just those I visiting teach, but ALL his children in need.
When I am told by these men that I cannot question them, even if they are at fault, I read the words of Paul as he, a missionary tutored by angels and called by Christ personally, chastised the prophet Peter for his treatment if the uncircumcised and for his less than allegiant mindset of “following” Old Testament traditions rather than joyously proclaiming with total conviction – Christ and his path to building Zion among his followers.
I hold myself at fault for not seeing sooner that Christ would never have authorized the dedication of a Zion Bank building, or attended the ribbon cutting of an expensive retail outlet by a prophet accompanied by the invitation ” shop” as the words of entreat.
Now my task is to rediscover the straight forward path to Christ and to being found worthy of his association personally. His words have been spoken to me directly multiple times over the years. An angel has placed hands on my head when I begged for the recovery of a spouse, Visions and dreams (including of Christ) have fortified my journey, but now I know my responsibility us to exercise the faith necessary to hear my name called with the declaration my sins have been forgiven.
These 15 Latter-Day Saint men are not at fault for my misplaced adoration for too many years. I am at fault. It was easier to follow them than to obtain “the more sure word” if Christ. But, as the years if tribulation are about to commence, I can no longer lean on their words of reassurance.
There are reasons I am still here in mortality striving to bring my grandchildren to a firm conviction if Christ. When mountains soon tumble, waters overstep boundaries, foreign armies invade (Isaiah) I want them to call out to God for direction (literally), for comfort. When soldiers and neighbors take their food storage I want them to truly trust God can provide manna, can still part seas, can kill 185,000 enemy soldiers in one night.
I want them to know Christ’s resurrection really did initiate resurrection for us all and that saints in resurrected bodies declared that truth through the streets of Jerusalem that first Easter morn. I don’t want them to know those facts as stories, rather to believe those realities as their siblings, spouses, friends and family die around them. I don’t want them feeling unrighteous when things are not easy, but rather to remember what Celestial saints before them had to endure to be worthy of eternal life. I want them to strive to see Christ so they can testify and strengthen others amid the horrors and chaos ahead.
I may have conference playing in the background this week, but the first moment the first “authority” refers to another of his unproven brethren rather than to scripture, or if one of them celebrates his brother rather than testifying of Christ, I will focus on reading my Scriptures, while offering a silent prayer in my heart for them, asking their master to forgive their charade, to forgive their unbelief, to forgive their “vain ambition” and to influence them to seek him out and to beg Him to “ordained” them, just as Joseph pled with his apostles to seek for Christ’s ordination in order to be worthy to call themselves apostles.
I now know if they cannot boldly proclaim Christ has met with each them (like Joseph, Moses, Elijah, Paul, Enoch, etc.) and called them to the work, they are NOT his apostles.
A call us NOT too sacred to share, it is a requirement of the title they claim to hold. When they cannot boldly claim the call, they cannot claim to be apostles.
Until they translate, voice clear declaration of what lies ahead for us in these immediate last days, they ARE NOT seers and revelators.
Saints, wake up. Please wake up! Priesthood holders, wake up follow the protocol in the D&C, even to bring the “president of the high priests” before a council and demand a confession of their falsehoods, their unrighteous dominion over the saints, their abuses, their robbing of our tithing funds to build “the corporation of the president” when they insist they are building Zion. Demand their repentence for walking past the global populations of the hungry declaring it is someone else’s role to “care”.
Wake up!!!!! Ask Christ to assist you to ” clear the temple “.
Good to see you back “on air”. Your post makes me think about Ghandi in Ghandi II from the Weird Al movie “UHF” – “He’s back, and this time he’s mad!”
I like the questions you ask. They are all pertinent and soul (and truth) searching. It’s lovely, and hard at the same time, to take on the big challenge of discerning and seeing it through to completion.
As for this weeks GC, I’m not really interested in attending. But, some truth might be spoken, and you wouldn’t want to miss a revelation when one finally is given.
God speed to you, AB!
The challenge is to temper our disappointment in men with faith in God. Our expectations are what create our disappointments. The less we expect from men the less we are embittered when they fail us.
If you were made a new member of the 12 I doubt you could change the direction of the institution. It is too big, too encompassed about with two centuries of traditions, too unwieldy for any change of direction at this point.
The question we are left with is whether the religion can survive the death of an institution that claims to own the religion, or if the death of the institution will necessarily take with it the religion itself. We needn’t see Mormonism end with the LDS version. The LDS corporate diversification will allow it to sail on whether the product line called “Mormonism” remains profitable for the LDS corporate empire or not.
If we believe in the restoration, and take the faith seriously, we should be as willing to diversify our faith-structure as the LDS corporate structure has been willing to use tithes to diversify its portfolio. Just as they have branched out to own communications, publishing, farming, banking, retail, office, insurance, and real estate ventures in order to insulate the empire from failing if one of the side-ventures (the religion of Mormonism) fails, we should diversify and allow our faith to acquire enough independence to survive any disappointments coming from 47 East South Temple.
God did a work through the Prophet Joseph Smith that will continue on whether the RLDS, FLDS, LDS or UAB collapse into corruption, wickedness and financial ruin. We ought to be dependent on God and God alone for our hope to see the return of Zion and completion of the work begun through Joseph.
Amen AB. You’ve nailed it on the head. However, I’ve also discovered that if you even infer that these men are less than they say they are to a TBM (True Blue Mormon), you face shock, indignation, resentment, and an attitude of “poor unfortunate soul.”
I too am a former Bishop of the LDS church and cannot stomach the debauchery we see happening around us all of the time. My wife and I recently shared our ‘awakening’ story with our family in hopes of gently persuading them of the reality on the situation. While some were surprisingly receptive, others have taken it upon themselves to attempt to save our souls through the bearing down in purely false testimony, accusing us of being possessed with an evil spirit, and turned us into one of the standard Mormon Reactivation Projects.
The more they babble, the more sure I’ve become in the great work of a second restoration. I have a much deeper appreciation for the opposition faced by all of the holy prophets, and our Savior Jesus Christ, as they testified against the establishment in favor of a divine order and truth.
Anyone possessing a heavenly message or testimony will find little but opposition in a fallen world.
Keep up the good work!
– Fellow Bishop whom shall also remain anonymous. 🙂
I have no intention on listening to anything on conference this weekend. Not even Dieter. It is the same old song, with a different beat as life goes on. I
am done! This church is no longer the church I attended growing up. It was kind and loving. Everybody was welcome. Politics didn’t matter. My parents were divorced and my Catholic grandparents raised me in Provo, Utah. People made sure I got to Primary. I felt the pure love of Christ. I was raised a Mormon. My parents were Mormons, but not really in my life. I don’t feel it anymore. Too many judgement hacks run the church today. Haven’t attended church in s long time. I don’t have the emotional energy it takes to get involved these days. I am so over it!
I have read your postings regularly over the past two years. For the what it’s worth column, they seem to be getting more and more negative, taking on a constant and increasingly bitter tone. As in, when I first began following your blog, I felt there was a definite balance of opinion on your topics, stating observed flaws but also recognizing the parts that were good. However, and over the past few months, it seems to me this has swung far to the negative side, with you rarely mentioning the good things the leaders of the Church are doing and/or calling us to do.
Although I agree with Solomon’s concept that it’s likely there’s nothing new under the sun even today, and that today’s leaders face issues similar to those others have since the beginning of time, I also believe today’s leaders have to deal with them like no others have since the beginning of time; i.e. an ability for anyone to blast out a stance instantly and worldwide regardless of predisposition and motive.
That ability oftentimes makes it seem as if any issues are the only elements, and nothing good exists vs. what I feel is the reality: there’s much, much more good vs. not espoused from our leaders, and that they are like any other leader since the beginning of time — whether it be Adam, Moses, Mormon or Joseph Smith — in that God has given them guidance from both the past via the scriptures and present via revelation from the HG, and a big part of their role is to constantly improve their ability to get that to us.
I appreciate your views, but want to forward what I have noticed as a significant change, and the greater good vs. anything else that exists in our Church and with its leaders today — Tom
Posing the question of whether or not they have had a personal visit with Christ is often mistaken as a two for the price of one question.
1) Have you or have you not seen Him?
2) What did He say to you?
The first question is a yes or no question & only requires a single word or statement to clear it up. The second question can be seen as to sacred to share, but when commanded to many ancient prophets were told to share what Christ declared to them. If Christ hasn’t told them to share, and if they have had a face to face with Him, it wouldn’t be too sacred to answer a yes or no question. However that yes or no could be enough for them to actually be called witnesses; if only they’d answer the question, and by not answering it they are ultimately leaving us with the only answer left which is to believe they haven’t. Why would I assume they have seen Him if they themselves don’t declare that they have. It’s a simple question and yet they avoid it.
Thanks Tom. I appreciate your feedback. There is a more personal backstory on this one, but it’s no excuse to not also express sentiments of love, compassion, forgiveness, kindness unfeigned, and recognition. I do appreciate the reminder and for what it’s worth, I do not feel anger towards these men. Frustration, yes. BUT they do not call themselves to these positions (w/ few exceptions) and I cannot say I would not do worse if the tables were turned. False tradition is a heavy yoke. I thank God He has not seen fit to allow me to be tested to that degree.
Bishop, I am sorry that you seem so angry. I have felt similar feelings. I hope you perk up here soon. So much to be thankful for. You are one thing for which I feel thankful.
Have a wonderful day, Bishop.
Find it interesting that a real prophet who has seen the Lord has seen fit to recommend restraint and love for the 15 pretenders.
This weekend will very likely be another gabfest with much sound and fury signifying almost nothing.
James Russell Uhl
AB, I admit to having believed Jesus Christ occasionally attended meetings with the brethren. Our scriptures pointed out that having Christ in our hearts is an old sectarian notion, and thus I was deceived by putting together my own correct scriptural understanding with ambiguous but leading statements from the 15.
I guess at this point I’ve come to the conclusion that it doesn’t matter much who else has seen Christ or not, but rather whether I have seen Christ (I haven’t). Thus, if I was to attempt to lead others to have access to God, then it’d be the blind leading the blind much the same as these brethren are attempting to lead.
But at the same time, I think it’s important to point who I believe are imposters (like the 15) and try to point people toward those who I believe actually did have access to God and attempted to lead others to the same (Like Joseph and Hyrum and the prophets in our scriptures).
Denver’s point that we ought not to be embittered when the brethren failed us hits home to me, as I hope others will not be embittered when I inevitably fail them. Jesus Christ is the name of the only one who lived on this earth who will not fail us. I know I’d be a lot happier if I just accept this.
Gramma, I would love to talk with you! I am a gramma also You have spoken so clearly what is in my heart of hearts! Amen amen and amen!
I hear your rant. I ferl your frustration but has it ever been the Holy church of God? I submit to you that even while Joseph Smith was alive, the organization had already been hijacked. Do what is the fuss over a faux church. It’s like having a melt down over finding out Santa Claus is not and never has been a real person. Who cares?
I don’t believe these men are all they claim to be. I think some are well-meaning. I think some are power hungry control freaks. I think some just like being where they are. For years I listened to conference talks. My reaction was usually, “Well, that was a whole lot of nothing.” but TBM’s were all agog at how instructive and wonderful it had all been…each one, it seemed to me, desperately fishing for a morsel they were positive was meant for them. None feeling joyful. All feeling lacking and in a rush to get on it and be better. To me, this is all soul-crushing. I am a convert, but am transitioning out of the church of men.
AB: Thank you for expressing what so many of us recognize (and have recognized) so well in your blog. From my own perspective, I do not feel ‘anger’ at the Church, only disappointment. To me it is very disheartening to understand what could have been and what I believe the Lord wanted versus what we (the Church) has become.
Regarding Tom’s earlier comment, what I have noted is that, over the last several years, the Church seems to be consolidating its position behind the ‘Follow the Prophet’ mantra and, with that, pushing away any and all others who stand in question of that. As a result, while the Church still does much ‘good’, it is shutting its doors to many of those who are truly closer to the spirit of the Lord.
It seems ‘normal’ for TBMs to look askance at Brigham and many of the things taught in the early days of the Church. Yes, I believe that Brigham did some things that incorrectly altered the direction of the Church. But at the same time, I know that Brigham and Taylor were privy to knowledge and concepts that have been swept under the rug in modern days largely because they were difficult to comprehend; it actually took a) effort and b) obtaining direction from the Lord. Too often we rely on our preconceived notion as the basis of judgement when that preconceived notion is actually quite wrong. As a result, many TBMs judge principles put forward in the early days based in modern precepts that our leaders gave in to because of political pressures. With broader understanding, many of the concepts and pronouncements made by the early leaders suddenly make sense and everything fits into its proper place.
There is still ‘truth’ in the Church. But there is increasing falsehood as well. And the latter seems to be driving out more and more of the former.
Amen. This blog post may display more sharpness than compassion, but the message is true all the same. Blessed be the name of all true messengers who cry repentance and lift the warning voice.
I weep for these men. If they could see their fate, they would be gnashing their teeth in fear and confessing their lies and obfuscations even now. But it is the Lord’s will that such carry on as they please until the wheat and tares are fully developed. A generation is 50 years in the Lord’s calculations, and the 4th generation of wickedness and apostasy is when separation, gathering, and burning occurs.
I prophesy that the hammer is poised to drop by degrees upon the nation of America, which is Mystery Babylon, beginning in 2017. We will first lose our free elections. No one running for President right now will inhabit the highest chair in the land. The current Congress will decide our next President. Then a new Congress will elect a different President. Then the Supreme Court will decide between the 2, and half the nation will become extremely embittered. But then, unimaginably, 3 Presidential candidates will be killed (or appear to die of natural causes) in a single month. This is how it begins.
From there, our freedoms stemming from the Bill of Rights will methodically and forcefully be trampled upon and not restored. This is our just punishment for rejecting Jesus who is the God of this Land of Promise. I implore you to bear the loss of freedoms in humility, freely forgiving those who seek power by abuse. Those who allow themselves to become embittered and speak out against the loss of freedom will be kidnapped, murdered discretely, or punished with imprisonment or massive financial penalties.
The LDS church and its citizens will comprise, as a block, one massive voice against this new tyranny. However, they will not be able to change it, and they will be forced to allow gay marriages in the temple in order to keep their nonprofit tax status. Less than a year after making this terrible compromise, however, their tax status will be removed anyway. Congress will require them to open all their books. Ugly truth will be revealed for all the world to see. Stout members of the church will seethe against the government and justify all the church’s illicit transactions and secret combinations.
There is more I cannot see clearly yet. But I know that true followers of Jesus Christ will be excommunicated from the church for disagreeing with the allowance of gay marriage in temples, as well as questioning the use of tithing funds. Prior to 2023 or 2024, true believers will also be offered as blood sacrifices to a corrupt government. Many of the true messengers and humble saints will perish while the rest are run out of the land we call the “Mormon Corridor”. Then, in the summer of 2023 or 2024 a mighty earthquake will release a reservoir of water that floods the entire state of Utah and pieces of the surrounding states. The Salt Lake Temple will be submerged underwater, just as both Jesus and Isaiah prophesied. Those in the area who do not perish in the flood will die of disease that follows.
This will be the beginning of greater woes upon the nation. Record-breaking earthquakes, volcano eruptions, tsunamis, famine, energy blackouts, and nuclear war will presage a massive land war by the King of the North (Putin) against the King of the South (Obama). America, which is the harlot called Mystery Babylon of the last days, will lay in ruins, conquered and laid waste before the eyes of all the nations. I believe this land invasion will occur after America is physically split into 2 pieces by a giant earthquake on a clear summer day, and that, as prophesied, she will fall in a single day, or a calendar year by the key of biblical prophecy.
When you see America push the majority of our armies into the Persian Gulf to attack Iran, know that this final blow is upon us. A single nuclear missile, detonated by Iran over our armies as they are gathered onto the soil of Saudi Arabia, will lay waste almost our entire army. Our navy with all its massive aircraft carriers will fall just as swiftly from surprise submarine attacks not long afterward, probably within about 2 years.
Do not join our armed forces unless the Spirit expressly moves you to do so. God’s hand is against our nation, and he is going to give us into the hands of our enemies by the year 2026. It is decreed that our armies must be defeated. It is decreed that we must be broken, laid low, and subjected to bondage. It is decreed that those with a strong spirit of patriotism for America must allow judgment to be effected upon this, the last and great Babylon, if they wish to live.
Prior to the invasion (in the year 2025, give or take), America will be a great persecutor of both Jews and Christians, and especially true Christians who aren’t hypocrites; to fight on her side will be akin to fighting the will of Jesus Christ. No patriotic justification will fly with God in that day of retribution. By the end of the foreign occupation some years later, however, China and Russia will be world super powers that are slaughtering and oppressing true Christians. If you are still alive in that day (around the year 2030 if I had to guess), then you are justified in fighting back and resisting. For it is the will of Jesus Christ that a remnant who trust his commands and believe only in him should be spared.
As a side note, the Russian Empire’s end will in fact come shortly after it decides to attack the favored state of Israel after crushing the US and Canada. There will also be a major attack on Israel before the US is laid low, in which the US lays a diplomatic trap for Israel. Israel will trust the US to be a friend, and instead we will betray her and force her to allow Palestinians back onto current lands controlled by the Jewish state, including within the very city of Jerusalem. Obama will be behind this, but I cannot tell for certain whether this 1st war against Israel happens in 2016 or some years later.
Regardless, Russia will, some years later, also make the mistake of seeking the downfall of God’s chosen people in the Middle East. But that is a prophecy for another day involving the anti-Christ and a league of 10 European nations and the metaphorical dragon (serpent) of China, which will take Russia’s place as the preeminent world super power. The Beast and the great, final Anti-Christ will oppress and rule for 40 years before all dissolves and collapses into tribal and family warfare of neighbor against neighbor worldwide.
A rapture will occur, but it will not be a pre-tribulation rapture. God will not save his people. He will reprove them and test them, that they may be found worthy of greater glory if they stand up to the tests. The bar for entrance into the celestial kingdom is very high, and only about 1 in 1,000 meet it. The rapture that will occur is for those who have received the inner ordinance of the baptism of the Holy Ghost and remained true to their testimony of Jesus Christ at whatever personal cost is exacted according to the good pleasure of God. They have proven that they would rather starve or even watch their crying baby starve than give in and be ashamed of Jesus Christ and his gospel.
These will be taken to a literal, 7 year wedding feast in the clouds while the wicked run in vain here and there for cover over those next 7 years. The Jewish fall feast of tabernacles (7-8 days long) represents this time as well as the Torah’s command that newly wedded couples celebrate with a 7 day feast. Christ said that the earth needs to be burned (a baptism of fire) and changed back into a terrestrial state wherein the rough places are made smooth, the mountains brought low, and the waters of the great deep return to their former positions. That will involve massive upheaval that none can survive. This is why Jesus declared that if he didn’t return a little early for the marriage feast, even his elect would die.
Alas, those are all prophecies to be expounded in their own sermons another day.
Dating back to the beginning of the natural disasters in America (early 2020’s I believe), and counting forward to the end of the war, nearly 200 million Americans will have died in about a 42 month span of time. And then will come approximately 7 years of foreign occupation upon American soil as war and disaster spreads to all the earth. Woe to those who try to break Jerusalem in 2, for they shall be broken likewise. Woe to those who fight against Jerusalem. For though two thirds of all Jews in that city may be slaughtered, the more righteous part will be spared, and the armies of heaven will fight their battles for them. All nations that fight against Jerusalem, like those that fall upon the rock that is Jesus Christ, will be broken.
Jeremiah, Zechariah, Isaiah, John the Revelator, Nephi, Mormon, Ether, and Moroni all saw these coming judgments. Additionally, several modern prophets who are not LDS, but who are legitimate true witnesses raised up personally at the good pleasure of Jesus, have been shown these things. God does warn the people through prophets still. He does reveal his secrets to his servants. If you hunger for legitimate prophecies, stop griping about the idiocy coming from those 15 Sons of Perdition governing the LDS church presently and focus your attention on those messengers who have shown a willingness to be tortured, penniless, and cast aside as nut cases to reveal God’s glorious designs for our benefit.
Watch videos of Chuck Youngbrandt, Sadhu Selvar, and Dimitru Dudamon. There are others, but these 3 bear all the signs and fruits (including rejection by men, a refusal to promote themselves or their own names, and great financial sacrifice) of true prophets that we are taught in scripture to look for. I also believe Joseph Smith saw all of this. Read Sections 86 and 101 of the D&C. Zion’s Camp is a future prophecy as yet still unfulfilled. The Lord will again show tender mercies to the people of this land, heal its woes, and gather the Native American Indians (tribe of Manasseh) to himself along with a tiny remnant of Gentiles who survive and humble themselves in the dust during the coming destruction.
The spiritual demise of the LDS church is complete. In the next 10 years we will see the financial, legal, and geographical demise of the LDS church as well. Gay marriage will take place in the Salt Lake Temple prior to the institution’s ultimate destruction. We can’t imagine it now, but it will happen all the same. For the LDS church is beholden to politics, and as the government becomes more corrupt and tyrannical, it will twist the church’s arm to compliance.
The same thing happened (thank goodness) to force the church to abandon the false doctrine of polygamy, and to a lesser degree with blacks receiving the Priesthood. The arm twisting will occur again, and no legal team or secret handbook design can prevent it. Women, I believe, will be ordained to Priesthood offices as well before the ultimate demise. These things are inevitable, unfortunately. But if we look to Jesus Christ, it doesn’t really matter what happens to the United States or to a man-made, man-governed business masquerading as a non-profit church institution.
I also weep for my bishop and my family and my wife’s family. They have truth in their hands, yet they lack the eyes and ears to see and hear it. They damn themselves when they side with the false prophets. They damn themselves when they obey the Church Handbook of Instruction rather than the commands and edicts given by Jesus to Joseph Smith as we read them in the Doctrine and Covenants. I pray for them mightily. I cry tears in my anguish for their darkened and confused state. I tremble to know that all such must suffer in a very real, very hot, and very terrifying hell upon their mortal death.
No. I do not espouse holding up Profits, Sewers, and Elevators as true Prophets, Seers, and Revelators. They lack the fruits. They lack the works. They lack the compassion. They lack the anonymity and the self-denial and the love of our Savior Jesus Christ. But I do not hate them. I do not even resent them. I weep for them. All their secret scheming will not save them. And while we usually purport Sons of Perdition to only be those who have turned away from Jesus after achieving an apostolic witness (which these 15 men obviously have never received), I encourage you to read Mormon’s words on the subject in 3 Nephi 28:34–35 and again in 3 Nephi 29:3–7.
The 15 men who lead the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints know enough, have seen enough, have felt the witness of the spirit enough – to know right from wrong and to know the prophecies and strict commands that have been given them. They qualify to become Sons of Perdition if they spurn at the doings of the Lord and reject his true messengers. This they have done. And I weep for their fate. The spirit has ceased to strive with their uncircumcised hearts of stone, however. And my prayer that mercy may be extended to them is in vain. How long, O Lord, wilt thou suffer such iniquity?!
Praise the Father. Praise the Lamb. All our allegiance needs to be to him who was elected to the office of Only Begotten Son prior to the foundations of this particular earth.
Praise God forever.
1Fold1Shepard, I can believe what you say, because I have had some of these thoughts, but what are your sources? How do you know that this is the timeline. I am not arguing with you, just clarifying. I will take what you have said to God in prayer, but where/who did you get your information?
Loved reading your comment. Goes along with what I have been learning. Both my Grandma’s have “graduated mortality” many years ago. I think I am going to adopt you as my Grandma 🙂
Amen, Brother Denver.
My personal challenge is not coming to terms with the Lord’s strange work in separating the restored gospel from the LDS church, but in watching my dad, on his deathbed, tell me that I am worthy of excommunication for agreeing with your 10 talk series entitled “40 years in Mormonism”. He and my mom listened to 6 of the 10 talks at my request on CD’s I made for them. They had no interest in hearing any more after that. They also read 100 pages from one of your books and then shelved it, never to open their minds further to the apostasy of the LDS church. They refuse to believe that Jesus Christ can raise up whatever true messenger he pleases from any generation and from any continent. It’s Mormonism or nothing for them both.
To reject true messengers of Jesus Christ is to reject Jesus. And to reject Jesus is to reject the Father. I can’t bear to think of the fate that awaits my dad when his spirit slips from his body any day now. He won’t be going where he thinks he will be going. And despite my pleading with him to at least repent and seek the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, he seems completely self-assured that he is going to heaven after having obtained secret temple ordinances. The Holy Spirit has told me repeatedly that I am not to resurrect him in Christ’s name, no matter how much I try to intercede on his behalf through tear-filled prayer.
My parents both converted to the LDS church 50 years ago. They met at a single’s ward in college at about age 20. To use a metaphor, the church proved to be their dream home. Coming from Virginia Bible Belt territory, and being the only members of their families to ever join the church, they were essentially cast out and ignored by their parents and siblings until they outlived them all. Over the decades they have seen too many friends and relatives who rejected the LDS gospel sink to ruin via drugs, divorce, prison, and bankruptcy.
But they cannot see that their “dream home” is no longer what it used to be. They don’t seem to care that the carpentry no longer consists of right angles between wall and ceiling, or that the foundation is cracking to the point of making the whole metaphorical mansion condemned for safety reasons. The wood floors are splintered. The plumbing smells foul, and they can’t see the trail of fecal matter running through the hallways and under their very bedroom door. They are under strong delusion, and there is absolutely nothing I can do to change that.
My greatest challenge is watching loved ones reject truth while I know what is shortly to befall both the institution and the nation. It is having no weapons at my disposal to wake them up aside from gentle persuasion, common sense, historical fact, prophecy, and scripture. It is knowing that hell is very real, that the pain inflicted there is merciless and exquisite in both body and mind, and that dozens enter in at that wide gate for every 1 who finds the narrow gate to heaven.
And I can’t help but think of Christ’s infinite depth of compassion for us. Not only did he live the perfect life and perform the required sacrifice; but he authors and guides the major trends of all human history, the events of social networks, the agendas of civilizations, with perfect accuracy to bring about the fulfillment of all his words with mathematical precision. And beyond this he knows each of us so well that there is nothing we can hide from him. And he loves us all the same. He forgives us all the same if we call upon him and duly seek his perfection and glory.
But the most amazing thing of all for me is that Jesus weeps for each of us the way I do for my dad. He didn’t create hell for us. He sacrificed everything to keep us out of there. And he has the power to deliver every soul that has ever lived upon the earth from that fate if we just accept his easy yoke, if we just receive him and make him the focus of our thoughts 24/7. But he cannot compel us to transform. Beyond harmless guile, such as using the words ‘Eternal Punishment’ to work upon the human mind to greater effect, Jesus cannot manipulate or force any of us to change voluntarily. He cannot and will not violate our free will, lest he cease to be God.
But his infinite capacity to feel pain and sympathize with both our current confusion and sufferings as well as our various fates in the different and respective levels of hell make him the object of all our grief in ways we could not bear to experience, both physically and emotionally, for more than 2 seconds. I love him so much. I am so grateful to him and to him alone. And I have to watch my parents voluntarily refuse to so much as pray that their sins be forgiven because they believe that physical ordinances they were specially chosen to receive somehow make repentance and sacred discernment of Christ’s true messengers no longer necessary for them.
For what it’s worth, Denver. Blessed by your name. I live in the heartland of the US, and had spent the previous 2 years listening, watching, and reading 1,000 General Conference talks going back to the 70’s. I began with the intention of drawing closer to God. By the end I was actively disagreeing with points that they were making, wondering if I was actually coming closer to God by listening to them or not. I could discern that something was off, but I didn’t know what. Then, last Fall, a friend of mine in the Kansas City area spent 10 seconds directing me to your website and the 40 years in Mormonism tab. Within 2 weeks I had listened to each talk 3 times each, and wanted all my friends and family to hear this true messenger, too. General Conference was stale twinkies, and you were a steak dinner with the freshest, largest salad on the side!
I have since found other true messengers. They come from humble walks of life, from every generation, and from every land. Each has a different mission assigned to them, but they all testify of the resurrected Lord and refuse to accept money or popularity for their work in the ministry. I bless the name of Joseph Smith. I bless the name of Denver Snuffer. I bless the names of all true apostolic witnesses who fight the good fight. Would that I might associate with such humble souls in the celestial realms of God in eons to come. I will pay any price to enter therein.
Praise be to the Prince of Peace forever and ever.
Thanks for your posts! Can we have the further backstory sometime?
How dare you “speak hard things” to us AB. You are so “angry” and “negative”. Apparently Laman and Lemuel felt the same for their little brother who spoke “hard things” to them. Which are we when it comes to the truth “which cutteth them to the center”.
1 Nephi 16
1 And now it came to pass that after I, Nephi, had made an end of speaking to my brethren, behold they said unto me: Thou hast declared unto us hard things, more than we are able to bear.
2 And it came to pass that I said unto them that I knew that I had spoken hard things against the wicked, according to the truth; and the righteous have I justified, and testified that they should be lifted up at the last day; wherefore, the guilty taketh the truth to be hard, for it cutteth them to the very center.
3 And now my brethren, if ye were righteous and were willing to hearken to the truth, and give heed unto it, that ye might walk uprightly before God, then ye would not murmur because of the truth, and say: Thou speakest hard things against us.
Can we endure this pain and heartache of having rejected the fullness for the “praise of the world” and awake and arise as individuals to be numbered among the Remnant of Jacob when the Lord extends His hand to recover them?
With Denver on this. We have expected too much of these men. They and their predecessors have woven a web so complex and deceitful that the only way it is going to be corrected is through its utter destruction. Satan has once again orchestrated a masterful counterfeit that is so close to reality it keeps millions thinking they are on the right path and they are satisfied with that. The tragedy, of course, is that so many good people are caught in this web – people that I truly love – people whose charity and generosity remain a standard for me to strive towards.
Zion is the goal. It is the ultimate goal of this earthly existence. Zion is worth any and every sacrifice. All else is a counterfeit existence – telestial in its glory.
This right here has probably had a greater impact on my current belief about the brethren than anything else: “…contrast their words to the words of scripture.” Thanks for the post. My feelings are similar.
Lena, I will create a fresh blog site tonight and post links to enough sources to get you started. The Lord reveals a puzzle piece here and a puzzle piece there. Each prophet gets to see and touch a different part of the elephant, and its our job to be proactive, discerning, and open-minded enough to search out his mysteries and put the pieces together. I’ll reply to you again once the site is up. Thanks for your query.
Praise Jesus. He’s the only one who can save us.
Bitter fruit is, well, bitter. Or put another way, one of the “bitter fruits” is bitterness. I know this by experience. In any case, the sweetest, purest, most joyful and glorious fruit of the tree of life, the tree which represented the love of God, charity, the pure love of Christ, is the un-bitterest thing there is – it thinks no evil, suffers long and is kind, judges not, forgives all, etc., etc. Light and darkness, faith and fear, love and bitterness, none of these opposites can occupy your soul at the same time. So choose wisely, choose joyfully. Maybe you think you have enough evidence, or lack thereof, to accuse. But even Michael would not accuse the devil, the father of lies, of anything, even lying – he simply told him to go away and left him to the Lord, Righteous Judge. The Lord judge between me and thee, etc. And in the end, you don’t want anyone accusing you of not possessing or demonstrating good fruits, right? I could be wrong. Peace.
I’ve enjoyed reading AB’s and the many comments to his insightful post. They are very thought provoking to say the least and most right on target. But there is a couple of questions that need to have a direct answer that I’m still not hearing from you folks. That is it’s quite obvious now that these 15 men are frauds! If God had spoken to any of them they would run to the microphone to announce a revelation.
The Lord told us in scripture about the restoration of the Church right. The best scripture on this of course can be found in the Book of Mormon. But how about the apostasy of the Church in the last days? Shouldn’t there be something written in the scriptures about the apostasy of these 15 men? A number of folks here have climbed all over AB for being angry and not showing enough compassion. What do you think the Lord has to say about these 15 men? What does He think of them? If they are frauds what is He going to do about it? These are all good questions and I want to answer a few from the scriptures.
I’ll start with D&C 112:24–26
24. Behold, vengeance cometh speedily upon the inhabitants of the earth, a day of wrath, a day of burning, a day of desolation, of weeping, of mourning, and of lamentation; and as a whirlwind it shall come upon all the face of the earth, saith the Lord.
25. And upon MY HOUSE shall it begin, and from MY HOUSE shall it go forth, saith the Lord.
26. First among those AMONG YOU, saith the Lord, who have PROFESSED TO KNOW MY NAME AND HAVE NOT KNOWN ME, and have Blasphemed against me in the midst of MY HOUSE, saith the Lord.
Alright, how much more clearly can this be? The Lord is talking about those who profess to know His name. This can only be the 15 men who say they have a special witness. They are the ones professing. Yet as AB pointed out they do not state clearly they have seen Him because they have not and they don’t know Him.
They have blasphemed in the midst of His house. How have they blasphemed? Blasphemy is taking the name of the Lord in vain. They have done so in many different ways. One is they have changed the ordinances of the temple and thereby mocked God. They have allowed blacks to enter the temple. They are not worthy to enter and cannot hold the priesthood. They allow abortion in the Church which is murder. They are murderers for doing this. They set up abominable idols of Christ in the midst of His holy house contrary to the 2nd commandment. Idols of Christ and deity are forbidden.
There are many more but this should suffice. So what does the Lord think of them?
Ezekiel 13 should answer that question. The following is from a new translation by Robert Smith.
1. The word of the Lord came to me.
2. Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel who are prophesying from their own hearts. Say to them, Hear the word of the Lord!
3. This is what the sovereign Lord says. Woe to the foolish prophets who follow after their own spirit and who have seen nothing.
4. Your prophets, O Israel, are like jackals among ruins.
5. You have not gone up to the breaches to repair the wall for the house of Israel so that it will stand firm in the battle on the day of the Lord.
6. They saw false visions and their divinations are a lie. The say, This is what the Lord says, when the Lord has not sent them. Yet they expect him to fulfill their word.
7. Have you not seen false visions and spoken lying divinations when you say, The Lord says, though I have not spoken?
8. Therefore, This is what the sovereign Lord says. Because you speak falsehoods and saw lying divinations, I am against you, declares the sovereign Lord.
9. And my hand will be against the prophets who see false visions and speak lying divinations. They will not be in the council of my people or be listed in the records of the house of Israel. They will not enter the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the sovereign Lord.
10. Because they lead my people astray saying, All is well when all is not well, and because one builds a flimsy wall and others cover it with whitewash,
11. Therefore, tell those who cover it with whitewash that it is going to fall. Rain will come in torrents and I will send hailstones falling down and violent wind will burst forth.
12. When the wall collapses, will the people not ask you, Where is the whitewash with which you covered it?
13. Therefore this is what the sovereign Lord says. I will surely send violent wind in my wrath, and torrents of rain in my anger. Hailstones will fall with destructive fury.
14. I will tear down the wall that you covered with whitewash and level it to the ground so that its foundation will be exposed. When it falls, you will be destroyed in it and you will know that I am the Lord.
15. In this way I will spend my wrath against the wall and against the ones who covered it with whitewash, and I will say to you, The wall is gone and the ones who whitewashed it are gone,
16. The prophets of Israel who were prophesying to Jerusalem and the ones seeing visions for her; visions of peace when there was no peace, declares the sovereign Lord.
I need to say a word about who the false prophets are Israel are. Ezekiel was prophesying against Israel just before the siege of Jerusalem at 600BC. He was speaking to Judah not Israel. Israel is Ephraim or us. This prophecy is directed specifically to the LDS Church today and neither to ancient Judah nor ancient Israel. Israel had been taken captive over 100 years earlier.
The Lord calls the false prophets jackals – how much more clear can He be? AB is absolute right to be a little disgusted with these guys. They are false prophets and false prophets. AB is being too kind. One more scripture that might help from Isaiah 66:6.
6. Hark, a tumult from the city, a noise from the temple! It is the voice of the Lord paying his enemies what is due them.
Here the Lord calls these 15 men his enemies. The city that he is speaking of here is Salt Lake City and the temple is the Salt Lake Temple. The time will come when He is going to pay them back for what they have done in the midst of his house by blaspheming his Holy Name. The Lord is going to root them out of their holes they have dug under the SL temple to hide themselves.
AB you’ve been too kind. There and many more scriptures that I can quote but the they are clear the Lord hates these 15 men and are going to destroy them.
I want to thank you for this post. I have had similar feelings. In a book or two that I read several years ago, also brought up that the leaders are just men and human just as much as the rest of us (obviously some of us are women…lol) but anyway, we are all weak and sin. Yet, I too, still went through very strong emotional stages-for a lack of a better way of putting it. I felt I had faith in Christ too. A friend of mine also told me many years ago that we are to pray about what the “brethern” or any “leader” says and see if it came from GOD and to continue to seek to be taught by GOD. Yet, I still went through emotional stages, but I am probably the weakest of “so called saints”. I do not begrudge you of any tone you may or may not have in this post. I accept you as a human being and as my brother in Christ and we all go through things differently. I understand! Whether or not there is a backstory or not, but I feel for you and pray/hope God will comfort you and your family.
I took it upon myself to gather some articles by previous GA’s thru to current ones, and I could see for my self the contradictions and did enough research to discover that many of the “changes” that were made were because of gov’t/societal pressures; so then I received the confirmation of the answers “I” was looking for.
As for this weekend, I plan to not be watching any tv.
I will pray for you and ask for your prayers as well. thanks.
Well this is an interesting mix of comments. I generally agree with AB and also appreciate Denver’s reminder. As for conference, I find it hard to think when it’s on. Something about those Utah Mormon voices speaking so slowly puts my brain in beta wave mode in a very stressful way. Furthermore, I find myself commenting at the screen when they give false doctrine as if I were watching a football game and my team was losing. I’ll leave it up to the internet to let me know if anything virtuous and lovely was discussed afterwards.
If we can save so much as a single soul by leaning towards sharpness of speech, then so be it. We must beware, however, that such sharpness is born of love and not of resentment. The Lord can mete out fierce wrath in a just manner without extinguishing his infinite love. We, on the other hand, risk condemning our souls to hell when we take justice into our own hands – even if we only do so in our thoughts or words. A single ounce of anger is enough to darken our souls and wrap us with cords tied to the gates of hell.
This is why the Lord tells us to pray for our enemies, our errant leaders, and those who abuse us, leaving him to repay the wicked for their crimes. It is for our own good and eternal welfare. The key to speaking sharping words of condemnation is to be able to do so with a feeling of complete forgiveness in your heart, accompanied by a severe longing for the welfare of the souls of the wicked – even to the point of suffering all manner of abuse and deprivation in an effort to afford them more time and opportunity to repent.
Thank you. I look forward to you post.
Amen brother Denver! There is no schism in your members. The power of the trumpeting angel rests upon you as in Adam. May the fruitfulness of your works bear sway to the tribes of Judah
Ahmen and Ahmen. A prophetess in Zion have we who bears witness to the truth and truthfulness of the fiery darts which await all TBMs unless they repent the devil laughs and his angels rejoice for unto them shall taken away even that which they hath. Eye has not seen nor heard the destruction which is to come starting in 2017 with He who will sweep out the nation as with a thrushing of great waters and wrath unified like no other. Snuffer will then take root in the words of Jethro who hath spoken upon the mountains … How beautiful are the words if those who seek my justice and then the second comforter will abound in the hearts of many who believe upon the words of AB and Denver when Zion will and shall be established Ahmen and Ahmen.
Say it ain’t so Joe. But, alas, it is so: they are not what they call themselves.
Mr Snuffer by your definition the restoration will always fail because it will always be led by men. Why bother with any organized religion at all then?
Also you make some strong accusations that tithing is used for church investments in real estate, malls etc. I also find it strange that people like you complain that the church doesn’t give enough to the poor but aren’t we the ones who will not donate more than minimum -tithing -and also contribute to humanitarian aid, fast offerings etc? For the church to give more to the poor we have to give more ourselves.
I will agree that our expectations our too high for the 12. They know they are just men like the rest of us. They didn’t ask for that calling. We should be less critical of them.
iterry54, much of what you stated rings true to me, with one exception: criticizing the church for “allowing blacks” to enter the temple. Perhaps you have studied this out, and gained knowledge that I lack, however, throughout the scriptures the Lord testifies that He is no respecter of persons. Everything I know about him is contrary to this idea.
While the church certainly did make a change in 1978, everything I have learned points to that change as a reversal of Brigham Young’s teachings, and a return to Joseph Smith’s (who ordained blacks to the priesthood).
I do not state this to argue with you, but only to encourage you to study it out for yourself.
My main motivation in stating this, however, is to make sure that others reading this blog can see that the idea of restricting blacks from the temple is not a principle embraced by all who believe Denver Snuffer is a true messenger of our Lord. While Denver has certainly discussed the 1978 change, I have never read any words from him claiming that the exclusion of those of African descent was correct.
I can appreciate your sentiment regarding blacks and the priesthood. However, I do have to disagree. I have studied this out extensively and prayerfully and reached the understanding that this was a correct principle. It would take an entire treatise to try to explain it, but restricting priesthood from members of the black race was and should have remained a principle within the Church. It doesn’t mean that they are not good people. But, in the Lord’s plan, these people needed to ‘delay’ their progression through this mortality – in this case by withholding priesthood from them. They were damned because of events in their previous mortal experience – what we like to refer to as the ‘Pr-existence.’ It’s another instance where those in leadership positions in the Church opted to place mortal man’s values ahead of the Lord’s.
By attempting to ‘ordain’ them and by allowing them to hold positions within that ‘priesthood’, several things happen: 1) We place mortal man’s judgement ahead of the Lord’s. 2) We effectively attempt to thwart God’s plan. 3) Since God’s plan cannot be thwarted, then while words have been spoken, these brethren cannot hold God’s priesthood, meaning that the priesthood that they thought they had is of no effect – they hold no priesthood, simply a position within men. 4) By attempting to allow blacks to hold these positions, we have effectively rescinded our own priesthood and any priesthood authority that we may actually have had. 5) We may effectively retard the progress of those who we thought we were helping. Unintended consequences. Because we failed to try to understand why the Lord would do something that, to our minds with our mortal (and limited) understanding, seemed ‘unfair.’
Yes, it does seem unfair to our eyes. But killing every person and animal of the Amalekites seemed wrong to Saul also. And to his peril, he placed his own judgement ahead of God’s (1 Samuel 15).
Dear AB – pivotal post, as usual. But this response is not directed to you, nor to any of the previous comments.
It’s for you, the good man sitting alone in his office reading this with tears in his eyes as he tries again, and fails again, to gather the courage to stand up and speak the truth about what he knows, and what he has seen behind closed doors.
King Noah and his court could not prevent our Abinadi from publishing, or stop him from speaking. He has faithfully delivered the message commissioned by Jesus Christ. Now it’s up to you to do your part. You know what needs to be done, you know how best to do it, and you know what it’s going to cost you: everything.
It’s time for you to do the brave thing which you volunteered for so long ago. Your family sustained you then, we will support you now. You are the catalyst in the full conversion to Christ of all those coming up behind you with their own foreordained work to do.
Oh dear brother, be brave! Show your children, and theirs, what a real life Alma looks like, sounds like, and acts like. So many of us are praying for you, cheering for you, watching and waiting for you – hoping you’ll finally remember who you are and what you promised to do.
Please let this be the very last time you prostitute your soul before the teleprompter.
“For if thou altogether holdest thy peace at this time, then shall there enlargement and deliverance arise to this people from another place; but thou and thy father’s house shall be destroyed: and who knoweth whether thou art come to the kingdom for such a time as this?”
For such a time as this….
11 Your desires have been to know the truth of all things, and thus I shall reveal unto you some more of the works of My hands and the nature and means whereby I created all things.
12 Ye shall take these things that I cause thee to write and shall print them and shall give to all those that shall listen; and they shall know the truth, and they shall shout for joy.
13 But those who shall reject these sayings, their countenance shall fall; for their works shall be exposed, for their lips speaketh lies.
14 And they say unto My people, “Yea, all is well, all is well in Zion; for God surely speaks to us, and the works we do are His works.”
15 Yea, and ye continue on in your own paths and distort the function of My holy priesthood and make a mockery of the holy offices.
16 But My house shall shortly be cleansed.
(2BC 23 March 1972)
How can the promises of further revelation found in John 16:12–13; D&C 121:26–33; D&C 132:66; AoF 9 and many other places be fulfilled when there needs to be a cleansing of the Lord’s house?
My intent in posting my earlier comment was not to convince anyone they are wrong, but mainly to make it public that not everyone who agrees with Denver Snuffer holds such views. Perhaps my views are a result of my own unbelief, but I have not seen any actual scripture supporting the ban on blacks receiving the priesthood, nor have I received any prompting through the Holy Ghost supporting such a belief.
I also have come to agree with Denver’s views on what the priesthood is, which all the more confirms to me that it is completely up to God to decide who gets the priesthood, and all can seek it. No earthly ordination will make any difference, but will only allow you to serve in an earthly organization.
I doubt you will be convinced, but that was never my purpose. I’m only writing to make sure that others realize that discarding the changes made in the LDS church does not mean they have to embrace restrictions on salvation.
How kind of you. I worry that I sound like I am ranting. Please feel free to connect with me.
You are so sweet and I will relish your complement for the season ahead. Love ve to be adopted… Truly!
Been reading a valuable book – PERSONAL WRITINGS OF JOSEPH SMITH. Enjoyed a portion wherein Joseph and the apostles “confessed” their sins in order to be worthy of the spirit and an “endowment” spiritually.
I truly hope and desire that our 15 leaders will each come to the podium and commence a profound exercise of repentance in front of all of us.
We love them, we just don’t LIKE them. We want them to come forth as Christ’s apostles, we want them to choose that course, to humbly beg God, on camera, in front of the world and in front of us to plead for forgiveness. God will help them, we will forgive them, but I for one will never play their charade game again.
Nice piece as usual!! Keep kicking, the counterfeit rats in their ass.
Lets go through this in detail because you’ve been lied to about the so called revelation on the Priesthood. There was no revelation. This was a ruse because what really happened is Jimmy Carter threaten Kimball with the power of the federal government to destroy the Church if he Kimball did not give the blacks the priesthood. A friend of mine had a copy of the letter from Jimmy to Kimball. It was spirited out of the Church office by an insider shall we say. He also knew the body guard to Kimball. The guard and Kimball talked for hours on how he was going to make this change in the Church. He told him all about how he was getting pressure from Jimmy Carter. So this stuff you’ve been told is a lie. There was no revelation. If you read the declaration you can see that it isn’t a revelation even though they say it is. Also as described below the vote on this phony revelation was not unanimous. Not only that but if you read this farce of a declaration it talks about the long awaited day. There IS NO prophecy in the scriptures that tell that there will be a time when the blacks will receive the priesthood. It isn’t there. This revelation is a lie.
I held the priesthood before 1978 and saw firsthand the power of the priesthood at work. I saw healings that were immediate that were the result of priesthood blessings. When I laid my hands are a person I could feel the inspiration of heaven. This wasn’t once this was every time. I also had the Holy Ghost and I knew His presence as well in my life. After 1978 and we all like a bunch of dumb sheep raised our hands sustaining this false revelation I noticed something. The Holy Ghost was missing after that. Answers didn’t come as before because of the absence of the Holy Ghost. Additionally the gift of healing was gone. I never again had the same experiences, inspiration etc. as I did before 1978. So with that I want to bear my sure testimony that I know that God took the priesthood on June 8, 1978 because a false prophet tried to give it to the blacks. I can be politically correct and say as you did that we were correcting what Brigham Young did. That is all nonsense and a Lie on the part of the Church. The true doctrine was had at the time of Joseph Smith. It was revealed to him that the blacks were not to have the priesthood. That was the entire reason for the Pearl of Great Price. Let’s review those scriptures in the Pearl of Great Price. Everybody forgets about them and what they mean. Because the members no longer believe in the PorGP.
Abraham 1:27: Now, Pharaoh being of that lineage by which he could not have the right of Priesthood, Notwithstanding the Pharaohs would fain claim it from Noah, through Ham, therefore my father was led away by their idolatry.
You do realize that the early Pharaohs at the time of Abraham were black of the tribe of Cain. They are the cursed race. They were cast out after the flood and Egyptus settled her sons in Egypt. You can read the story in the PofGP. This is all known. You can read about the curse in Abraham 1.
Here is one more scripture about the blacks and the temple that few know about Zechariah 14:21
Vs 21 …in that day there shall be NO MORE the CANAANITE in the house of the Lord of hosts.
Who are the Canaanites? THE BLACKS. This is a prophecy about what Kimball did. Before you can kick them out of the temple you have to get them into the temple which is what Kimball did.
I need to tell you a story about Eldred G. Smith former patriarch of the Church. He was kicked out of that life time calling after the blacks were given the priesthood. When the so-called revelation happened EGS at that time knew that this was wrong. He went to the Lord in pray to receive the same revelation. He did not receive it but found out that it was not right. He went in to the weekly meeting and walked into the room and told the brethren that what they were doing was wrong that the Lord had not given them a revelation AND THEY WOULD PAY IN ETERNITY IF THEY MADE THIS CHANGE. Hinckley and one other false prophet jumped up and escorted him out of the room and told him he was NOT welcome in their meetings. A short time later, Kimball removed him as patriarch to the Church. A calling that was supposed to continue in this Church forever was removed by these jackals. A friend of mine interviewed Eldred Smith and learned these details. He told me that EGS was a bitter man after this, but he said he did not believe it was his job to steady the ark. In my opinion it was his job to do just that to expose these phonies. But he is dead now and died at 106 years old. I believe the Lord preserved him to witness the corruption of these evil men. Time is short now and soon the Lord will be exposing them for the fraud they are to the entire Church.
That is my research on the subject there Blair. You’ve been lied to by these false prophets. It has caused great confusion in the Church. Now there are mixed marriages of people mixing with the cursed race as Abraham 1 calls the blacks. The gift of the Holy Ghost is now gone from the Church and that is manifested mostly in the younger members who now have a hard time staying active. The Church is failing as you likely know. The gifts of the Spirit such as healing are gone now. Even the president of the Church can’t heal anybody. I have another friend who had a brother get a blessing from Monson. No healing at all. They can’t heal anybody. Recently you may have heard Bednar during a blessing tell a person “Do they have the FAITH NOT to be healed”. Well that’s nonsense and to me it means only one thing. They know that they don’t have the priesthood.
Blair, do you know why the blacks have been cursed in the first place? Black is not a pretty color. Political correctness dictates that we must accept them but through the ages they have always been an outcast. Why are they cursed? Do you have an answer? Just curious if you have any idea.
Wow! Thank you.
James, while I can’t speak for Denver, I would say for myself that you are absolutely right. The restoration will indeed fail IF it is led by men – BECAUSE it is led by men. The purpose of the restoration – the purpose for the introduction of every dispensation – is the establishment of Zion. Zion, according to Denver’s own words, can never be established using a strong man (or men) model. Such a model completely contradicts Zion. Zion didn’t work with the early saints partially BECAUSE they depended too much on Joseph and didn’t realize that Zion is a perfect collection of individuals all guided by the Lord Himself. So, for my part, I absolutely agree that, yes indeed, any model that is led by men will fail. As a matter of fact, leaving babylon has little to do with the “trappings” of babylon (money, movies, books, tv, sports, etc) and everything to do with leaving behind the thought processes of babylon (competition, stuff, control, and LEADERS).
Charity always. Easy. Patience. Honor thy father and thy mother. Administering Denver Snuffer in a large dose may be too much too fast. Be hopeful. Your love for them is what matters. Hey, I’m from Kansas City. I was blessed in the 3rd Ward and born at Trinity Lutheran a long time ago during a tornado. Maybe we’ll see you out here soon while things get cleaned up out there.
Well! my one fold and one shepherd brother…you have certainly put it all on the line, and it won’t be long before we can test your prophecy. By the end of this election year to be precise. I’ve read a great number of prophecies about the latter-days and yours sound familiar, but you’ve also ascribed dates which shows no small measure of courage. I assume you are a brother, because most of us in the extra knowledge acquiring and the obtaining of baptisms by fire business are husbands without the full consent of our wives. Indeed to become one with them is risky because some of our pent up energy is sublimated energy while we wait for better conditions here below. Don’t get me wrong, I have sympathy for the trajectory of our 4th generation entropy theories, but, I for one, am hopeful we can continue to raise up our loved ones to restoration, and teach according to how the Lord will have us teach. I look around and see hope in what the Lord is doing and see many minds being changed. Our leaders are no different than us at the basic level, but their yoke is different; far different. I know leaders and sons of leaders who are listening to the changes taking place and we’ll need them all. Salvation may be a very personal endeavor, but Zion is for a community who love the Lord. I hope to meet you and learn from you in that great day without the veil of anonymity.
Blair: Thanks for using your real name and thanks for sounding reasonable. The really strident and “courageous” stuff always seems to be from anon.X.whomever. Mr Snuffer is an anomaly and I can respect him for courage. Blasting a loved one with a cantankerous-sounding “repent!” may well get them killed. It’s up to us to raise our brothers to a mutual understanding through the Spirit with charity; indeed more charity than ever before.
Born in KC MO myself at St Luke’s Hospital. Baptized and became a member of 1st Ward with Bishop Whitney. Small world.
I recently didn’t get my temple recommend because I told the Bishop I couldn’t sustain the brethren as PSR without redefining what those terms means, and that I couldn’t in good conscience do that. I told him I could support them in their capacity as leaders of the church, but not as PSR. They ask 8-year-old kids the same question before they are allowed to be baptized. So while I do agree that we set ourselves up for disappointment when we set our expectations too high, the fact of the matter is, we are set up to have high expectations. Not just because some member unwisely holds up the Ensign or even the Church News as scripture, but because to participate at all in the church we have to proclaim that we believe them to be Prophets Seers and Revelators. And because we are admonished to read the scriptures and the scriptures teach the true meanings of those words, it’s little wonder that we have such high expectations of these men.
You’ve put into words exactly how I’ve been feeling this week. Bravo sir.
Taking a quick look at history will reveal the error of your “blacks and the priesthood” beliefs.
Please review “Race and the Priesthood” Gospel Topics in LDS.ORG (2013)priesthood went off the rails long before president Kimball’s fiasco.
I am appreciative of the history.. But go to 2 Nephi 26:33.. Non are denied that come unto him BLACK , white bond or free..
God is not a respecter of persons.. But men sure are..
And in Joseph smith time blacks did have the priesthood and served in the kirtland temple .. Bringham young was the non prophet that stopped it.. In 1852
Go looking: race and the priesthood gospel topics on LDS. Org 2013..
Their are blacks that are even Jewish hence they have priesthood through lineage ..
I am very aware of the Abraham piece on blacks but I believe the Book of Mormon sheds a greater light and knowledge on New Testament preaching … If you said your priesthood stopped it was because of lack of faith .. By faith all things come to pass .. Since Wilfred woodruff bohemian grove signing the church officially was not walking the true path..
iterry54, It appears that you know what you know very strongly, so I will not attempt to convince you otherwise. I will just say that I disagree with your interpretation of scripture. I will say that you do make many assumptions about what I believe. I agree with you that the 1978 “revelation” was not a revelation, but it appears that I have a different belief of what priesthood actually is. It is my belief that priesthood is a relationship between mortals and angels (Aaronic), or mortals and Jesus Christ (Melchizedek), or mortals and Elohim (Patriarchal). If you would like to know more about this idea, I suggest that you read what Denver Snuffer has taught.
With this understanding of priesthood, it’s seems pretty absurd to me to have any sort of ban in an earthly organization run by men. If there is a restriction on priesthood, let it be at God’s level, and He will prevent an individual from having a relationship with angels, Jesus, or the Elohim, as He sees fit. There is no reason that I can see for us mortals to consider anyone banned from any blessings, especially when we consider our own awful state.
Another problem is that it’s not entirely clear what was meant by “canaanites” both before and after the flood. I realize that you have stated your beliefs on this, but I disagree, and all the evidence suggests that there is room for multiple interpretations. It’s also extremely problematic when you consider the fact that the majority of African Americans, and probably all people of African descent, are not only descended from Ham, but probably Abraham as well. Which lineage is dominant?
As for your other questions, I simply don’t know. I haven’t made it a point of study, because I am too busy working out my own salvation with fear and trembling to worry about anyone else’s. I do know, however, that God is no respecter of persons, and we are all in the same sinful state before him, cast out of his presence, and struggling to regain it.
This is somewhat long, but worth reading. They are testimonies of brethren who approached Joseph with the question regarding blacks and the priesthood, including Elijah Able’s testimony. It will not be what you want to believe. Again, I would strongly encourage you to study it out from an eternal perspective.
1) Saturday, May 31st, 1879, at the house of President A. O. Smoot, Provo City, Utah, Utah County, at 5 o’clock p.m.
President John Taylor, Elders Brigham Young, Abraham O. Smoot, Zebedee Coltrin and L. John Nuttall met, and the subject of ordaining Negroes to the Priesthood was presented.
Brother Coltrin: The spring that we went up in Zion’s Camp in 1834, Brother Joseph sent Brother J. P. Green and me out south to gather up means to assist in gathering out the Saints from Jackson County, Missouri. On our return home we got in conversation about the Negro having a right to the Priesthood, and I took up the side he had no right. Brother Green argued that he had. The subject got so warm between us that he said he would report me to Brother Joseph when we got home for preaching false doctrine, which doctrine that I advocated was that the Negro could not hold the Priesthood. “All right” said I “I hope you will.” And when we got to Kirtland, we both went to Brother Joseph’s office together to make our returns, and Brother Green was as good as his word and reported to Brother Joseph that I said that the Negro could not hold the Priesthood. Brother Joseph kind of dropped his head and rested it on his hand for a minute, and then said, “Brother Zebedee is right, for the spirit of the Lord saith the Negro has no right nor cannot hold the Priesthood.” He made no reference to Scripture at all, but such was his decision. I don’t recollect ever having any conversation with him afterwards on this subject. But I have heard him say in public that no person having the least particle of Negro blood can hold the Priesthood.
2) Abraham O. Smoot also gave further testimony to Priesthood restriction from the Negro race:
Brother A. O. Smoot said W. W. Patten, Warren Parrish and Thomas B. Marsh were laboring in the Southern States in 1835 and 1836. There were Negroes who made application for baptism. And the question arose with them whether Negroes were entitled to hold the Priesthood. And by those brethren it was decided they would not confer the Priesthood until they had consulted the Prophet Joseph, and subsequently they communicated with him. His decision, as I understood was, they were not entitled to the Priesthood, nor yet to be baptized without the consent of their Masters.
In after years when I became acquainted with Joseph myself in the Far West, about the year 1838, I received from Brother Joseph substantially the same instructions. It was on my application to him, what should be done with the Negro in the South, as I was preaching to them. He said I could baptize them by consent of their masters, but not to confer the Priesthood upon them. (The Church and the Negroid People, as quoted in Mormonism and the Negro, p. 11)
3) Monday, 26 Oct. 1970: Priesthood Answer. Editor, Tribune:
What then is the reason for the continued racial exclusion?
The answer is simple. The Prophet Joseph Smith was commanded by God to withdraw the priesthood from Elijah Able [sic], and revoke the ordination. There is no exception. The continued church’s policy over the years is an evident fact that Presidents Young, Taylor, Woodruff and Snow, as well as Heber C. Kimball, William Clayton, and other leaders of the time, all knew of this excluding doctrine and continued to abide by it. Although there is no official Church record as to the revocation, Elijah Able affirmed the fact to father, Thomas A. Shreeve, when both were living in the Salt Lake 10th Ward, during 1872-1877. At the time, Bro. Able told young Thomas, who baptized Able’s grandchildren that the Prophet Joseph “came to him with tears in his eyes one day, and told him [Able] that he had been commanded by the Lord to withdraw the holy priesthood from him.”
Patriarch Shreeve, testified many times before his death in 1931, of the facts in the case, and of his close relationship with Brother Able. As of this date there are still living three members of the Shreeve family, who know of the facts to which their father testified Elijah Able told him. (Caleb A. Shreeve, Sr., The Salt Lake Tribune, “Forum,” 26 Oct. 1970)
Many would rather complain, criticize, find fault, and accuse unjustly, imperfectly, and hypocritically than hear this simple message:
Be filled with love towards God and all men.
Be filled with the love of God.
Be filled with love.
Pray unto the Father with all the energy of heart, that ye may be filled with this love, which he hath bestowed upon all who are true followers of his Son, Jesus Christ; that ye may become the sons of God; that when he shall appear we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is; that we may have this hope; that we may be purified even as he is pure.
A new commandment I give unto you. That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
We are of God; he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
Beloved, let us love one another; for love is of God; and everyone that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
He that loveth not, knoweth not God; for God is love.
In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his son to be the propitiation for our sins.
Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.
No man hath seen God at any time, except them who believe. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.
Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as he is, so are we in this world.
There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear; because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
We love him, because he first loved us.
If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar; for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.
Reject the bitter fruit and partake of the fruit of eternal life, the fruit of the love of God. Love, Joy, and Peace to all of you. Farewell.
You evidently haven’t done your homework well enough or you would know that Brother Brigham prophesied correctly: the Church no longer has the Priesthood due to the things you stated.
Sorry, but you seem to be missing something here… church membership was given to the blacks NOT the Priesthood. An error was made and a gentleman was given the Priesthood but it was then taken back until all other sons of Adam were given the opportunity to have it.
tundraboar, the accounts that you have listed were all given many years after Joseph Smith’s death, and they conflict with Joseph Smith’s own actions, that is, ordaining men of African descent to the priesthood. The church has a long history of putting words in Joseph’s mouth in order to defend its current or past practices.
Is there any proof of the validity of this belief that is contemporary with Joseph, such as diaries or letters that were written when he was still alive? I have not seen any, and am skeptical of anything put out by a church that was and is desperate to prove its own validity.
Please dear brother do not let this be a challenge to you. Put that burden off on God and just love your parents. Be happy for them that they have found a religion that brings them hope, comfort, peace, and allows them to do many good works.
Gramma, One thing that is a testimony to me is that I knew I had the priesthood before 1978. I could literally feel a sort of beam of light on my head when giving a blessing EVERY SINGLE TIME. After that day however it was gone. So to me without question it happened when we all raised our hand sustaining this action the Lord removed the priesthood. After 1978 I never had that experience again and I noticed that the Holy Ghost (gift of) was gone and also the gifts of the spirit were gone. No more healing which I was a witnesses to before 1978.
So that’s my defense and research on the subject. Please elaboration on what you mean. Thanks iterry54
Okay Blair, now I know where you are coming from – You are a fundy. They have a completely different interpretation of things that I reject. They understand the apostasy but they think they somehow still have priesthood. The scriptures are clear as to what the priesthood is and it’s not a relationship. It is an actual power given to man to act in Gods name. Peter said silver and gold have I none but what I have I will give thee – arise and walk. That’s priesthood and the authority to act in Gods name.
So we will have to agree to disagree on this subject. Thanks for the comments. iterry54
Interesting comments about lack of faith. You are a lady and have no knowledge of what the priesthood is or how it works. I KNEW I had the priesthood before 1978 and it wasn’t a lack of faith as to the reason it was missing after that date. I quoted a number of scriptures on this subject and you are taking 2 Nephi out of context. The prohibition was in place at the time of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as well. Black in 2 Nephi is obviously referring to the black skin of the Lamanites who are of the House of Israel if they repent. Not the black canaanites who according to Abraham cannot hold the priesthood. Far different between the two peoples.
The Church has lied to you about the priesthood and what Joseph and Brigham said. I find it appalling that the Church would throw these great men and prophets under the bus in favor of the FALSE prophets and FALSE apostles we now have in the Church. They even threw out Eldred G. Smith – that’s a fact you seem to be ignoring. You want to follow these impostors go ahead. I won’t. ITerry54
iterry54, I assume that by “fundy” you mean fundamentalist. Wow. I’ve never been called that before. I’m afraid you misunderstand me. I don’t think my beliefs can really fit into any label. I’m a follower of Christ, and seek to be nothing more.
Shaming people for “not doing their homework” is not as effective as teaching with love and understanding. If you see errors, then lovingly preach truth. I admit that I fall short, and I constantly seek for the Lord to teach me. If there are errors in what I have written, then please give some evidence of why. It is not unreasonable to seek testimonies that were written while Joseph Smith was still alive. Anything written after that is likely written with the intention of using JS to add credibility to the author’s views, and therefore, is unreliable.
Oh my gosh! I couldn’t have said this more succinctly! Thank you, Gramma!
The Spirit left you because of your bigotry after 1978. Many of us continued to have it. sorry, but this is true. god is NO respecter of persons. Like it or not, unless you accept that you will NOT have the Spirit or power in your priesthood.
Kent, God is a respecter of persons. I wish you would comment on the scriptures in Abraham 1 instead of just mouthing stuff that is false doctrine. The Church was restored to bring in Ephraim from his long dispersion. That’s a fact and the reason for the patriarchs. Those false prophets and false apostles changed all that. Eldred G. Smith did not go along with them. He was the only true prophet among those phonies. You are likely too young to know all this stuff which is unfortunate. Many members left the Church in 1978 because they knew this was a phony revelation.
Someday you’ll have to be honest with yourself and recognize the fact that the gifts the spirit are gone. You have never healed anybody since 1978. If you say you have you are lying to yourself and me. I know better. Either that or you have no understanding of what healing through the priesthood is.
I did sustain the action of giving the priesthood to the blacks. It wasn’t until 20 years later as the apostasy deepened that it all became apparent what had happened. So nothing changed between me and the Church for 20 years or so. I knew the priesthood was gone early though and could not understand why. Now I understand why and have explained it clearly. You are just in denial.
The Church is dead Kent just like the Catholic Church which was the Lords Church is dead as well. Apostasy happens every 200 years or so. We didn’t quite last that long. The Book of Mormon is clear on the cycle of apostasy. The Church is dead now because of no priesthood and no revelation. This was all prophesied in the scriptures that this would happen in the last days. All the holy prophets including Isaiah, Ezekiel, down to Joseph Smith say the same thing that the Church would go into apostasy. The D&C parable of the nobleman is about the apostasy of the LDS Church in the Last days. Joseph didn’t know it would because he didn’t need to know. We do however. I’ll put the commentary about that revelation so that you can read and comment if you want too. The commentary is by Robert Smith however. He is a Hebrew scholar and wrote several very interesting commentaries on Isaiah and other books. This should enlighten you as to the apostasy. If not – oh well – continue in your blind state. Iterry54
43 And now, I will show unto you a parable, that you may know my will concerning the redemption of Zion.
44 A certain nobleman had a spot of land, very choice; and he said unto his servants: Go ye unto my vineyard, even upon this very choice piece of land, and plant twelve olive trees;
45 And set watchmen round about them, and build a tower, that one may overlook the land round about, to be a watchman upon the tower, that mine olive trees may not be broken down when the enemy shall come to spoil and take upon themselves the fruit of my vineyard.
46 Now, the servants of the nobleman went and did as their lord commanded them, and planted the olive trees, and built a hedge round about, and set watchmen, and began to build a tower.
47 And while they were yet laying the foundation thereof, they began to say among themselves: And what need hath my lord of this tower?
48 And consulted for a long time, saying among themselves: What need hath my lord of this tower, seeing this is a time of peace?
49 Might not this money be given to the exchangers? For there is no need of these things.
50 And while they were at variance one with another they became very slothful, and they hearkened not unto the commandments of their lord.
51 And the enemy came by night, and broke down the hedge; and the servants of the nobleman arose and were affrighted, and fled; and the enemy destroyed their works, and broke down the olive trees.
52 Now, behold, the nobleman, the lord of the vineyard, called upon his servants, and said unto them, Why! what is the cause of this great evil?
53 Ought ye not to have done even as I commanded you, and—after ye had planted the vineyard, and built the hedge round about, and set watchmen upon the walls thereof—built the tower also, and set a watchman upon the tower, and watched for my vineyard, and not have fallen asleep, lest the enemy should come upon you?
54 And behold, the watchman upon the tower would have seen the enemy while he was yet afar off; and then ye could have made ready and kept the enemy from breaking down the hedge thereof, and saved my vineyard from the hands of the destroyer.
55 And the lord of the vineyard said unto one of his servants: Go and gather together the residue of my servants, and take all the strength of mine house, which are my warriors, my young men, and they that are of middle age also among all my servants, who are the strength of mine house, save those only whom I have appointed to tarry;
56 And go ye straightway unto the land of my vineyard, and redeem my vineyard; for it is mine; I have bought it with money.
57 Therefore, get ye straightway unto my land; break down the walls of mine enemies; throw down their tower, and scatter their watchmen.
58 And inasmuch as they gather together against you, avenge me of mine enemies, that by and by I may come with the residue of mine house and possess the land.
59 And the servant said unto his lord: When shall these things be?
60 And he said unto his servant: When I will; go ye straightway, and do all things whatsoever I have commanded you;
61 And this shall be my seal and blessing upon you—a faithful and wise steward in the midst of mine house, a ruler in my kingdom.
62 And his servant went straightway, and did all things whatsoever his lord commanded him; and after many days all things were fulfilled.
We now come to what I believe is the most important part of this revelation and the very heart of it. This parable has two meanings and we will discuss both in the following commentary. The Lord says that it concerns the redemption of Zion.
The Lord is the nobleman, of course. He speaks to his servants and tells them to plant twelve trees on this choice piece of land. The twelve olive trees are the twelve tribes of Israel, as you can guess. They plant them there. The servants to whom he refers are Moses and the Angel of the Lord’s Presence. This is the original nation of Israel. They were established in the land of Israel. The servants built a hedge around the grove to protect them. He commanded them to build a watchtower to see and warn the people when the enemy was coming.
In ancient Israel, they had the law as given through Moses, which was the hedge. They did not build the watchtower. While they did have prophecy during most of their early years, they fell asleep. They began to intermarry with the Canaanites and the high priesthood was taken, just as has happened in our own time and for the same reason. The kingdom was divided and broken up. Later it was invaded and destroyed. The hedge or true law was broken down. The trees were all broken down. This describes the apostasy of ancient Israel and the captivity of the tribes and scattering of them in the world.
We are familiar with these historical facts, however. The Lord is not giving this parable thousands of years after the fact just for historical information. It is a type and prophecy of the last days also, especially of the Church. Let us examine the meaning as it applies to the Church today.
The Lord tells his servants to plant the olive grove. This is the restoration of the gospel. There are not twelve trees in the grove yet, but there are people from all the tribes who are scattered among Ephraim, so the twelve trees still applies. My wife, for example, is of the tribe of Reuben, according to her patriarchal blessing. We have Jews and members of all the tribes in the Church, albeit in very small numbers.
The servants did as the Lord commanded. These servants are Joseph Smith and others who participated in the restoration. After the initial restoration, the first servants leave and the other servants are left to carry out the commandments of the Lord. They are told to build a watchtower and put a watchman on it to watch for the enemy.
The hedge is again the doctrines and ordinances of the restored Church. It is the hedge which protects the people. It is their defense against the world and against the enemy. There were watchmen placed around the hedge. These are the teachers and leaders of the Church, including the so-called apostles, whose duty it is to keep the doctrines pure and not to change them. Notice the watchmen are placed around the hedge rather than on a watchtower. This means that they are not prophets and cannot see farther than anyone else.
The watchtower represents revelation, however. It allows the watchman to see far into the distance, which is the future. Only a prophet can do that, and only in this can they know of the approaching enemy before he is near. Apparently, the Lord intended to continue speaking with the Church through a prophet. He ordered the Church or the servants to continue receiving revelation.
In the parable, the Lord explains what would happen. The other servants after the first servant is gone, sit and consult. They question why the Lord needs a watchtower seeing it is a time of peace. They see no threat from the enemy. They have the revelations and ordinances. What more do they need? Of course they need the warning eyes on the watchtower to alert them to danger.
As these men consult, they decide that the money would be better spent invested in business. While they were arguing, they became slothful and failed to obey this commandment. After the first servant leaves, these servants fail to build the watchtower. We know there was no further revelation in the Church, but in this parable the Lord seems to be laying the blame on these servants, who are the apostles. They are the ones who have access to the Lord’s money.
We now know from history that when the Church came to Utah, there was no persecution initially and they were left to develop and grow. The apostles paid themselves an allowance from the funds of the Church. But they also invested the Church money in businesses. The biggest fault was that they themselves invested and developed businesses instead of just running the Church.
The apostles got their allowances from the Church but they drew more than they were allowed. When they got behind too far, they then would meet and forgive their debts to the Church. By this means, they unethically took the Lord’s money to invest in private businesses. They became involved in lawsuits against each other through their companies. In the early years, most of the major businesses were owned outright by or in partnership with the apostles because they had the Lord’s money to invest, although not justly. For this reason, the Lord cut off revelation to the apostles. By their own unethical behavior and misuse of these funds, as the parable says, the Lord cut them off from revelation, and that is what he is explaining here. The watchtower was never built. There was no longer revelation in the Church because these men did not remain the humble apostles of the Lord they should have been and once were.
As a result of not building the watchtower, the enemy came by night. This means that the enemy came during this revelatory blackout, which is metaphorical darkness. In v. 51 we get a big jump over time. During this period of darkness, the enemy, who is Satan, came and broke down the hedge. The hedge, remember, is the doctrines and ordinances of the Church. Lucifer has been able to cause all the sacred exalting ordinances to be changed. Not one of the ordinances is now done correctly. He has caused the priesthood to be taken. He has introduced the proliferation of graven images in the Church, making it a replica of the original Great and Abominable Church. Abominations in Hebrew are idols. It is the same word, so we have become an abominable Church, or one of idols and images. We are a very big Church, hence we have become a great and abominable Church through this form of apostasy.
This verse, 51, jumps then to the end. The enemy not only breaks down the hedge, but he comes into the grove and breaks down the olive trees. This is the invasion of the king of Assyria who literally enters the olive grove and breaks down the trees, who are the people of Israel or the Church. In ancient times, the Assyrians and Babylonians invaded Palestine and broke up the tribes, destroying them and taking a small remnant captive.
In our time he enters Utah and the areas around Utah. The righteous remnant escapes on the exodus to Adam-ondi-Ahman and the rest are either killed or a few are taken captive and deported to other places. Before this invasion, however, the false servants, the apostles, have to flee. When the famine arrives, many of the members, driven mad by hunger, will seek out the apostles and presidency of the Church to kill them. They will hold them responsible for not telling the people to prepare for it. They will be killed by these angry people, for the most part.
Notice in v. 51, the Lord says the enemy comes and destroys their works. What are the works of these apostles? In President Hinckley’s multimillion dollar birthday celebration, the speakers praised him for his works. His works were the conference center, which the Lord describes as Shebna’s tomb. They also mentioned, as is often done, the number of temples built during his tenure. This is a fact of which he is very proud. The other enterprises of the Church such as shopping centers, broadcasting media and other income producing businesses are their works and they will be broken down. It is significant that the Lord does not call them his works. He does not claim them. They are the works of these blind apostles who built physical structures and businesses rather than the watchtower. The bottom line is that they became temporal and worldly instead of remaining spiritual and holy as true apostles. Their works are entirely worldly.
In vv. 52-54, the Lord reprimands his servants. This is fictive conversation, because he does not really speak to them. This is dramatic convention for our information. Had the apostles been righteous, there would have been continuing revelation or at least plenty of inspiration. The Church would not have lapsed into apostasy, as it has, and the enemy could not have destroyed it. These verses are very clear. No one can miss the meaning who reads them carefully.
In v. 55, the Lord gives directions to one of his servants. This servant is the Davidic king who is John the Beloved as we can see from the things he does. In Isaiah we have a catalog of all the things he does, and we know him by his actions. The following description uses the same terms, so we know it is talking about the same person.
First he says for the servant to gather the residue of his servants. Again, we recognize the words. He is to gather the remnant of his servants, although he uses the term residue here, but it means the same thing. Who are the remnant of his servants? He has been talking about the Church in our time. The residue is the righteous remnant of Ephraim because they are the Church and the only ones who are together.
The strength of his house is his warriors, who are his young men and his middle aged men. They are all the males of the righteous remnant who are on the exodus. They are the ones who fight against the king of Assyria and destroy him and his armies in the land of Zion. They are the 144,000. The land of Zion is the vineyard and they redeem it.
I wanted to comment on another thing in this verse 55. Since this is modern revelation and has not been translated many times, we can pretty much rely on what the Lord says. He particularly notes that his warriors, the 144,000 are made up of not just young men but older, even old men as well. In Revelation, where they are described, I have noted that this has been subject to tinkering by the theologians over the years. I would like to mention a couple of places that are wrong and proven so by this revelation and others.
And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. (Revelation 14:3–4)
In these verses the Lord describes the 144,000 as being virgins who are not defiled with women. In the middle ages, the idea developed that any sexual contact was sinful. The Lord allowed the masses to marry, but the higher form of worship was through celibacy, a Gnostic doctrine. Hence, in the holy orders and the priesthood, they were forbidden to marry. This addition is obviously Catholic tampering and was added by someone in that time who thought this was how it must be. The Lord plainly says they are both young and old men, meaning they are married. Enough said.
The last line says they are the first fruits. The Lord has continuously referred to the remnant of Ephraim, who are gathered first on the exodus as the first fruits or the first offspring. They are the first of Israel to be gathered to Zion. As v. 55 plainly states, and I think purposely to dispel this error in Revelation, they are not young men who are literal virgins. This is Catholic hogwash. As I said, they are young and old men as well most of whom are married and have families.
They are not from the various tribes either. They are all from Ephraim. Ephraim were the warriors in the preexistence who fought alongside the Savior in the war in heaven. That is why they/we were given the choicest blessing including the birthright blessing of the priesthood. These are the ones who will fight the Lord’s battles in this crucial time being spoken of here. These men are the strength of his house, meaning the house of Israel.
He tells his warriors, the 144,000 led by the servant who is the Davidic king, to go and redeem the vineyard. The last line of v. 56 is important for tying it to literal reality. He says, “for it is mine; I have bought it with money.”
This is one of the mysteries. When the Lord sent the people to Zion, and even after they were expelled from Independence, he commanded the Church to raise money to buy more land there. He is referring to that legality. The Lord literally purchased that land with money and it is his in every legal sense of the word. But the mystery is why he had to do this. By this time, when the Davidic king comes to redeem it, there are no people living there anyway. The land is just lying there empty for the taking. Since the whole world is his, why does the Lord have to purchase land for the location of his holy city? Well, we have no answer to that, but it is again one of those celestial laws that we do not understand fully. He did explain that it is a witness against these mobs in their judgment.
In vv. 57-58, the Lord tells his servant, the Davidic king, to go and break down the walls of his enemies and scatter their watchmen. The Lord does not say it here, but after this destruction of the armies of the king of Assyria in Zion, they go into his homeland where they destroy the rest of his people. Isaiah gives this account.
But when my Lord has fully accomplished his work in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem, he will punish the king of Assyria for his notorious boasting and infamous conceit,… Therefore will the Lord, the Lord of Hosts, send a consumption into his fertile lands, and cause a fire to flare up like a burning hearth, to undermine his glory: the light of Israel will be the fires and their Holy One the flame, and it shall burn up and devour his briars and thorns in a single day. His choice forests and productive fields it will consume, both life and substance, turning them into a rotting morass. And the trees left of his forest shall be so few, a child could record them. (Isaiah 10:12, 16–19)
So the people of the king of Assyria will not only be destroyed in this land, but the 144,000 led by the Davidic king, the light and Holy One of Israel, will utterly destroy all his briars and thorns, which are all his armies and soldiers. They are still deployed around the world, but this will end them in a single day. In addition, he says that it will consume his forests and fields. These are the masses of civilian population. He says both life and substance will be consumed. So not only will the people be destroyed and burnt up, but their substance will also. Their planes, ships, tanks, guns and all other material things of these people will be burned, and every thing will be left a rotting morass. This is pretty gruesome, but it is the end of the king of Assyria and his entire nation by the Davidic king and the 144,000.
The Lord says in v. 58, that he needs this done so that he can come with the residue of his house and possess the land. This is obviously the gathering. When the land is redeemed, then the gathering of Israel will be done, also by the Davidic king and the 144,000. The righteous remnant of Israel will return to possess the land of Zion.
In v. 59, there is a nice little touch, which I think is a little barb for us. The servant here knows when it will be because he is doing it. But in our time the Lord is answering us in response to this question, “When I will.”
The last two verses, 61-62 are a little anticlimactic. He praises this last servant and says he will be a ruler in his kingdom. The terms steward and ruler identify this person as the one of highest rank. He is the steward of the Lord’s house, the one who presides for him. He presides over Israel as its legitimate Davidic king and he presides over the priesthood by his dual tribal lineage; Judah and Ephraim. He is both king of Israel politically, and president of the high priesthood and the Church, such as it will be then.
The final verse then says the servant went and did all things he had been commanded and after many days it was fulfilled. It is not going to happen in the days of Joseph and the Zion saints of 1833. It will be many days in the future. They may not have picked up on this subtlety, however. But that is the interpretation of this marvelous parable which has been sealed since it was given. No one has understood it until today, but now you can read it and understand it fully.
Blair, I read over you thoughts again and I must of just skimmed the part about the blacks descend from Abraham. Don’t you read the scriptures Blair? This is as false as it gets. Abraham didn’t marry any blacks. He was commanded not to do so. The same with Isaac and Jacob. They all went to Chaldea to get wives of their cousins, and sister as in the case of Abraham. Joseph didn’t marry a black. He married a Hyksos who were Chaldean and a cousin. There is no black blood in the House of Israel. You’ve been lied to. Read again Abraham 1 – he said clearly that the blacks were CURSED. The scriptures are clear about this and Joseph Smith knew this. The only ones who don’t know this are the liars and servants of Lucifer the 15 falses prophets and false apostles.
I take that back about you being a fundy. You are just a blind member that accepts the apostate false doctrine of the brethren. Sorry about that. Sometimes I guess I skim too much. IT54
In the eighth chapter of Mosiah, Ammon explains to King Limhi that the Jaredite plates can be translated by the gift of Seership. He then explains that “a Seer can know of things which are past, and also of things which are to come and that secret things can be made manifest.” Mosiah 8:17
Contrast Ammon’s definition of a Seer – “to know of things which are past” to the recent talk given to the CES educators by Elder Ballard. In his talk Elder Ballard explains the process of how he finds answers to historical questions of the church’s past – “This is exactly what I do when I need an answer to my own questions that I cannot answer myself. I seek help from my Brethren in the Quorum of the Twelve and from others with expertise in fields of Church history and doctrine.”
It is interesting that there is no mention of using his title as “Seer” to seek guidance directly from the Lord to ascertain answers to his historical questions.
Since the death of the Prophet Joseph Smith, the title of “Prophet”, “Seer”, and “Revelator”, has taken a different meaning. Interestingly the term “Prophet” was not applied to a living man holding the office of “President of the Church” until 1955, during President David O McKay’s administration. The term “Prophet” until that time was always held in reverence and remembrance of the Prophet Joseph Smith, and the person sustained in the office of President of the Church, was commonly referred to as President. Below is how President Brigham Young acted as a revelator in his office.
“Let this Church which is called the kingdom of God on the earth; we will sommons the first presidency, the twelve, the high counsel, the Bishoprick, and all the elders of Isreal, suppose we summons them to apear here, and here declare that it is right to mingle our seed, with the black race of Cain, that they shall come in with us and be pertakers with us of all the blessings God has given to us. On that very day, and hour we should do so, the preisthood is taken from this Church and kingdom and God leaves us to our fate. The moment we consent to mingle with the seed of Cain the Church must go to destruction”
Brigham Young addresses, Ms d 1234, Box 48, folder 3, dated Feb. 5, 1852, located in the LDS Church Historical Department, Salt Lake City, Utah.
When the Official Declaration–2 was released on September 30, 1978 concerning priesthood and the blacks, I wondered how the church was going to deal with Brigham Young’s prophecy on the Church “going to destruction.” It has taken 36 years for this to be addressed.
From LDS.org we find the following on the Church and Race:
“Today, the Church disavows the theories advanced in the past that black skin is a sign of divine disfavor or curse, or that it reflects unrighteous actions in a premortal life; that mixed-race marriages are a sin; or that blacks or people of any other race or ethnicity are inferior in any way to anyone else.
Church leaders today unequivocally condemn all racism, past and present, in any form.” https://www.lds.org/topics/race-and-the-priesthood?lang=eng&query=Race+and+the+Priesthood
Was Brigham Young a prophet when he prophesied about the blacks? If he was, then why did the Lord cause the Church years later, to disavow him and his “theories” he prophesied about?
A similar issue took place concerning President Wilford Woodruff prophesying about polygamy.
“If we are going to do away with polygamy, it would only be one feather in the bird, one ordinance in the Church and Kingdom. Do away with that, then we must do away with the prophets and apostles, with revelation and the gifts and graces of the Gospel, and finally give up our religion altogether.” Prophet Wilford Woodruff, Journal of Discourses, v. 13, p. 166
In contrast to President Woodruff’s prophetic statement above, he changed his tune and did away with polygamy in the Manifesto of 1890. Had President Woodruff misunderstood the Lord concerning polygamy?
Concerning these revelations of President Woodruff, Apostle Charles Penrose stated the following:
“President Wilford Woodruff is a man of wisdom and experience, and we respect him, but we do not believe his personal views or utterances are revelations from God; and when ‘Thus saith the Lord’, comes from him, the saints investigate it: they do not shut their eyes and take it down like a pill.” – Apostle Charles Penrose (Millennial Star 54:191)
The original premise of Anonymous Bishop’s post was to alert us to the fact that titles in which the “Brethren” wish to be sustained by have morphed into something far different than what we learned from Ammon in reading the Book of Mormon,
I think Elder Penrose’s statement is as true today as it was in 1890, that we should investigate and inquire of the Lord if the “Brethren” are indeed acting in the official capacity as a Prophets, Seers and Revelators.
I have really enjoyed this post.
All the best, AB2
AB2 I think its very clear now that the only prophet, seer and revelator was Joseph Smith. The rest simply weren’t. I posted a commentary on D&C 101 which when understand states the reason for the absence of revelation. Brigham Young received one revelation before coming to this valley. After they arrived they became business men. They would take money from the Church coffers and after a while they would forgive each others debt. Most of the 12 had every type of business in the valley and if you had to buy or do something you about had to go to one of them to get anything. This is what was meant in D&C 101 that they gave the money to build the tower to the exchangers.
So we can all sit around and say lets investigate but it’s very clear that the gift of revelation and prophecy was yanked from the Church after they got here to the valley. That does not mean however that they didn’t have some inspiration. I think those statements by Brigham were inspired. But they were not revelation. IF they were revelation you and I would be able to read them as in the case of the revelations given to Joseph and only one to Brigham. Nevertheless Brigham was right about the blacks. The clear doctrine on the blacks is written in the book of Abraham. Why can’t the members see and accept true revelation? The high priesthood has been removed now the gifts of the spirit including the gift of the Holy Ghost has been removed. This is all clear. The members simply need to recognize that fact and stop supporting these phony and lying PSR. IT54
This is a response to Jesef’s comment earlier in this thread, and to those who might agree with him. Jesef seems to be saying that this post by AB is lacking in love, and that it “complains, criticizes, finds fault, and accuses unjustly, imperfectly, and hypocritically…”
Possessing love unfeigned is a virtue that the Savior had, and he complained openly about the Sanhedrin and criticized them harshly. There is such a thing as righteous anger and righteous sharpness. It is motivated by love, which includes an unwillingness to allow sacred things to be trampled on with impunity.
When Joseph was in prison and the guards were blaspheming, Joseph called them “fiends of the infernal pit”, which is one of the harshest insults in all of Mormon literature. What AB has written is several orders of magnitude less harsh than that.
The current officers are taking the Lord’s name in vain when they imply God is communicating directly with them, or that they have a sure or special witness of him. They don’t have such a witness, else they would assert it humbly and in a straightforward manner, rather than using arcane and implication-laden language as noted here: http://www.totheremnant.com/2015/07/all-that-glitters-part-6-special.html
Certainly there is such a thing as (1) being impressed by the Spirit with a general idea, after which we must encode the idea into our own words and present it for examination to others. This is a very different thing from (2) speaking face-to-face with God and writing down the exact message that he wants delivered. It is also different from (3) being under the influence of the Holy Ghost to such an extent that we become a transmission vehicle for the exact words that God’s wants spoken. Type 2 and type 3 revelations are obviously more precise and more powerful than type 1 revelations.
The current officers experience type 1 revelation on a regular basis and in a limited way – just as all people do, who are listening and trying to connect with the divine. The problem is that they present themselves as being personally familiar with God, as being his friends and associates, as if they are getting type 2 and type 3 revelations. This is not accurate, and it’s very dangerous and blasphemous. I think for the most part they are not being maliciously deceptive, they are entangled in a long standing tradition (that they were born into and have not sufficiently investigated) that leads them to misrepresent themselves.
There is no lack of love in AB’s post. It is motivated by the pure love of Christ. It’s purpose is to call to repentance those men who are taking the Lord’s name in vain, and also to warn and call to repentance those who are misguidedly worshipping mortal officers.
I used to believe that all of the top officers (including most of the 70), had met the Savior and were at a higher level of spirituality than the common membership. The tone and language that is used within the Church leads members to those kind of conclusions.
I think that one of the misunderstandings among both the leaders and the common membership has to do with the 5th Article of Faith. It is generally interpreted to mean that whoever holds administrative office (at the top levels) is there because God likes them, agrees with them, favors them, supports them, and that by definition, that they “prophesy” the Lord’s will. I think that this misguided extrapolation is to some extent where Wilford Woodruff got his idea that the Lord will never allow the leaders to run the church over a cliff. The wording of the 5th Article of Faith is so strong that it hardly leaves room for an alternate interpretation. It seems to align with Alexander Pope’s famous line from An Essay on Man: “Whatever is, is right”. (I.e., from a Mormon perspective: “However the church is being administrated, it is right, it is according to God’s will”).
The logic that the church is on course, that all is well in Zion, that we are safe to trust in and follow the duly appointed officers – can also be extrapolated without too much twisting from various sections of the D&C; meanwhile, it is rejected with relative clarity by other passages in the D&C and BoM. There is a relatively strong contradiction on this point within the scriptures – or at least the appearance of a contradiction.
It is almost as if the Lord has intentionally allowed the “all is well in Zion” idea to exist and thrive, by allowing various strongly worded passages to end up in the scriptures (maybe those particular passages are not inspired). Those words act to entice and entrap people (Isaiah 28:13). I suppose such entrapment is necessary in order to accomplish the test that God is running on us, so that the wheat can be separated from the tares.
I think what the test boils down to is that God doesn’t want slavish followers. He wants equals who are willing to ask the hard questions and seek real answers. By allowing partially blind guides into positions of administrative power, and by allowing the “all is well in Zion” concept to exist and thrive, he is able to find out who will be followers of mortal men, and who is willing to act in a spiritually independent manner as Christ did –by resisting unrighteous administrative authority wielded by officers who sit in the seat of Moses and wear the cloak of the priesthood.
I feel sorry for those who are called into high office within the church. They are unwittingly being used as threshing tools by God. And it is their own fault for not realizing it, because there is fair warning in the scriptures.
They could repent and become witting threshing tools, but most of them are so deep in the Matrix that they have no desire to wake up. They have poured concrete into their own pedestals. They would prefer partial damnation in the next life, rather than to face the acute humiliation of finding out they are acting as partially blind guides in this life.
With regard to Denver’s mention that even an inspired and on-track member of the Twelve would not be able to turn the train around. I suppose he is right, because such a person would likely be released or excommunicated within a few minutes after his first conference address. For example, if this post by AB had been the opening speech of the most recent General Conference, he would have been shown the door, or a pile of stones, faster than a witch at a Salem Christmas party, even if he was one of the Twelve.
Such an address from a high officer might wake up a lot of members, but it would probably interfere with the test that is taking place. The basic test is that God comes incognito among men in various forms. He comes as a beggar, an outsider, a critic, or a troublemaker (i.e., his messengers are such). Those who are truly and sincerely looking for the unvarnished truth that God has to offer– they will find it, but it usually will not be given to them on a silver platter (i.e., in General Conference, or by high and mighty Sanhedrin publications). Instead, they have to find it in the rough part of town, on the wrong side of the tracks, as they are out searching with real intent.
I like the comment by Lynne McKinley earlier in this thread, which is a direct plea to the high level officers to repent. But the tragedy is that most likely none of them will, and most of them would not be caught dead reading this blog. They are like the Sanhedrin, set in their ways, blind to their own sins and mistakes, and uninterested in investigating or challenging the existing traditions or official doctrines.
The people that AB’s posts are likely to help is common members who are searching with real intent, and trying to understand what is going on, trying to make sense of the apparent contradictions and chaos that exists. To those individuals: you are looking in the right place.
In sum: there is no lack of love in what AB has written. He loves the officers with a pure love. He is not willing to tolerate them taking the Lord’s name in vain with impunity. That is a righteous and Christ-like kind of intolerance. It is a call to repentance, which is motivated by love.
I wish we knew who you were. I want to think that you are my favorite bishop from my ward here at home. If you were, I would totally be in love. 🙂 I can think of no humbler man than him, but there was always an air of…unorthodoxy. I loved it.
Anyway, this post is also a bit more negative than I’d like to read.
I’m sorry for whatever caused your pain.
However, now that conference has past, I can honestly say that I really did enjoy it much, much more than recent conferences. Some of these talks were perfect and exactly what I needed.
One specifically answered a concern I had for my teenage son (why are teenagers so hard?).
I’ve never, ever received revelation like that, but the simple truths told over conference were enough to soften my heart so that I could “know” my answer.
That doesn’t mean that the speaker was revealing a new truth. Rather, he stated a very simple truth. But it was a reminder for me and one I needed very much.
Anyway, I do hope that you listen to the addresses with a soft heart – trying to feel our Savior’s love.
Perhaps your hurt will soon heal.
What a great comment with so much insight offered. Thank you Joe.
Charity, I guess you really don’t understand what is going on in the Church. Perhaps the very best way to help you understand is to quote what a prophet of God has to say about the members of the Church in the last days. Please take what Nephi says to heart because he is talking about the members.
2 Nephi 29:21 And others will he pacify, and lull them away into carnal security, that they will say: All is well in Zion; yea, Zion prospereth, all is well — and thus the devil cheateth their souls, and leadeth them away carefully down to hell.
All that gushy stuff about healing and love is all well and good, but it doesn’t lead to healing when the leaders teach false doctrine as they did in conference singing in your ears “All is Well In Zion”. They teach false doctrine and don’t keep the commandments of God. You didn’t say what was so wonderful about conference. I didn’t hear much doctrine and what was taught was false and not in accordance with true revelation. All it is good for is lead one down to hell. IT54
Well Thought out!! Thanks for sharing, Its always about the test??
We are all being tested in many ways. Belief in leaders’ authority is a test. Will we follow truth when it does not come through approved and adored channels? Will we choose the written word of God which was given for our standard, when living leaders’ words and/or actions go contrary to them? Will we only accept truth when it comes from the “many who come in Christ’s name” and yet they cause many to be deceived?”
( Matt 24 4,: 5 –Jesus was asked what was THE sign of his coming and of the end of the world.
He answered: “Take heed that NO MAN deceive you. For many shall come in my name, sayig I am Christ, and shall deceive many.” An editor has wrongly put a comma in this verse, which many have interpreted to mean many Christ’s will come. That doesn’t make sense in this verse. Jesus would have said many would come saying they themselves are Christ.
Remove the deceptive comma and it says many will come in “my”–Christ’s–name. Thereby deceiving many. What better way to cause deception, intentional or unintentional, that to testify of Christ.
The deception will be that people will believe that leaders who come in
Christ’s name, who testify of him, have been given his command to speak for him, when he has not commanded them.
Who are the many who come in Christ’s name and deceive many?
Ezekiel has much to say of prophets who prophesy out of their own hearts, “and have seen nothing.”
It has all been prophesied to happen this way n the last days, even as of old. Everyone is being tested to see if they will trust in the “approved” arm of flesh, or will they hold fast to the truth in the word of God?
Who are they that Christ mentions who come in his name and deceive many?
Would “many” be deceived into following an evil and ruthless leader? Or would it be easier to cause
many to be deceived in some way, by following trusted “authorities” who see peace for them when
there is no peace?
Isaiah has told us that the “sum total” of revelation for us in these last days will be God’s words from Isaiah. ( as per the Gileadi translation):
“For you the sum of vision has become the words of a sealed book…” Isa 29 11.
The sum of vision. Not a vision from those who cry all is well because we increase in members and riches and favor with the world and have many temples
dotting the land and other good works that are apparent.
Members of the church interpret this scripture about a sealed book to refer to the words Joseph Smith took the professor to be translated but Joseph was told he could not read a sealed book.
All the apocalyptic books of scripture are sealed books. There is more than one way a book is sealed.
The ancient prophets wrote in a manner that hid the meaning of their words from the wicked, but
which the righteous would be able to understand once they are “taught after the manner of the things (i.e. words) of the Jews.” ( 2 Nephi 25:5)
Isaiah used his times as a type for the last days, our times, when the only revelation or vision we would have from God would be the words he gave to Isaiah for us when the “Lord has poured out on you a spirit
of deep sleep; he has shut your eyes, the prophets;
he has covered your heads, the seers. ” Isa 29: 10.
We are free to either believe the leaders are speaking for God at his divine command, or we can believe what Isaiah has to say about such leaders.
Both cannot be true.
Isaiah tells us that “these” people–God’s wayward people–pay him homage with their mouths,
but their hearts are far from him; their piety consists of “commandments of men learned by rote.”
The same teachings over and over. This itself implies no new revelation. Hence the teaching and learning by the rote method instead of new revelation.
God’s commandment to not take the Lord’s name in vain means not to “say he saith” when he has not spoken. Many unrighteous teachings, policies, doctrines, commandments have come about through the ages because many believe God has spoken through a leader, when he has not but the leader allows people to believe he has God’s sanction and authority over them to speak for him. This is vain.
If we believe the words of Isaiah, we will know exactly what is happening within the church and be able to withstand the idea that authority to speak for God comes by virtue of a position of leadership. A corporation must have CEOs and a president, though.
What we are witnessing as a church and a people is actually according to God’s plan resulting from his gift to us of free will. He gives the choice to leaders to lead flocks of believers, out of messages of their own hearts which may or may not be deceptive, and the followers, in turn, have the choice to allow their ears to be tickled by the vanity of pleasant but often false traditions, policies, and doctrines of men.
Those who seek further light and knowledge and want to only follow Christ and to come to him without anyone standing between them and him him are often condemned for not following man and supposedly “correct” protocols and policies. The leaders of all Christian denominations who thus lead, are like the Pharisees that Jesus condemned of old, who ” shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.”
We can hold fast to the belief that leaders would not be allowed to lead us astray from former truths, and important doctrines vital for our eternal salvation,
or we can hold fast to what God has said is his word in holy writ which warns us of this test– through words Isaiah put forth to lead us in the disturbing days we are in.
AB, what do you make of President Packer’s words from April, 2014 Conference:
“For we saw him” (D&C 76:22–23).
Their words are my words.
I believe and I am sure that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that He lives. He is the Only Begotten of the Father, and “by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God” (D&C 76:24).
I bear my witness that the Savior lives. I know the Lord. I am His witness. I know of His great sacrifice and eternal love for all of Heavenly Father’s children. I bear my special witness in all humility but with absolute certainty, in the name of Jesus Christ, amen.
In spite of the issues surrounding the brethren and the state of the church I would be very careful in refering to them as profits, sewers, and elevators. What gives any of us the right to judge another? We may judge between good and evil, but we ought not to judge individuals, and we definitely better not condemn anyone. Just because Christ spoke harshly of the Pharisees in his day doesn’t give any of us the right to speak evil of the brethren. Christ may judge them and condemn them if he sees fit, because he died for them and can perfectly see their hearts. We cannot. Christ said judge not lest ye be judged, and let he who is without sin cast the first stone (which could only possibly be Him).
It’s one thing to point out some of the issues with the trajectory of the church, but it’s quite another to begin speaking evil of the Lord’s annointed. Make no mistake the Lord has seen fit for these men to lead the church. We know they aren’t perfect and that all is not well in Zion, but we do not know their hearts or how the Lord feels about them.
If we choose to speak evil of these men and condemn them I hope we’re prepared to be judged unrightiously ourselves. For in the same measure in which we judge others will we also be judged.
Righteous indignation and condemnation are best left up to the Lord. The rest of us ought to focus on removing the beam from our own eyes.
The testimony of President Packer is certainly problematic for Denver Snuffer and his disciples. President Packer gave a very similar witness of knowing the savior in General Conference a year after he was called to be an apostle, as well.
Of course the faithful Denver Snuffer followers will try to rationalize that President Packer wasn’t 100% specific about seeing Christ in the flesh and that he didn’t provide any details of his experience.
Regardless, if President Packer and other current apostles have seen Christ and are being directed by him, even if just through the Holy Ghost, it throws a serious wrench in Denver Snuffer’s claims. The biggest wrench being that if President Packer (and other apostles) have seen Christ in the flesh they must have the high priesthood. They also must have truly received the second comforter and had their calling and election made sure. And if our leaders have the high priesthood and some or all of them have received the second comforter why would we need a new prophet in Denver Snuffer?
DT – Packer did NOT say that he saw Christ. He didn’t say that he felt the wounds in His hands and feet. He didn’t say anything other than say that he knows that Joseph Smith the true prophet of God Saw Him. These guys are phonies.
What did Christ say about the false prophets in the last days. Do you remember? Packer fulfilled a prophesy specifically about him in Matthew 24:5. It says “For many shall come in MY name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.” In other words DT there is false prophets who will come in the name of Christ and testify of Christ but will deceive many. Ezekiel 13 is about our false prophets who speak from their own heart and haven’t seen anything.
Okay so how do I know they are phony apostles and prophets? Let’s go down the list and you can respond if you want. BTW – many here on this blog have a testimony of the gospel of Christ and can testify as well as you can. But the thing we know that you don’t seem to know is that these guys are leading you down to hell because they don’t keep the commandments of God. They dance around the truth.
1. They don’t say clearly that they have seen him as Paul, Peter, or even Joseph Smith did. They receive NO revelation. They would run to the pulpit and declare they have if they did. They don’t and they aren’t prophets.
2. There are scriptures that state clearly that they are phony in the last days. Ezekiel 13, Isaiah 29, D&C 101 and D&C 112:24–26 to name a few.
3. They DO NOT keep the commandments of God. Did you know that the Church teaches that you can have an abortion for almost any reason and still remain in good standing. This is murder and Isaiah says that we in the Church are guilty of murder in the last days (Isaiah 1:15).
4. They accept homosexuality. Although recently they say that if you are in a homosexual relationship you can be exed they still accept it as okay. You can go to the temple (as long as you are practicing wink wink) and you are okay. This is absurd. Homosexuality is grievous sin and should be dealt with as such. But it isn’t.
5. Acceptance of images of deity contrary to the 2nd commandment. The Christus is an idol of Christ and is condemned in the scriptures. Deut 4:10–20, Isaiah 44 and 45 and many others tell us that we cannot have images of Christ period. The excuse is – well we don’t bow down to them. Nonsense – an idol is an idol and is sin. Even Monson taught the members how to pray to any idol. A few years back in conference he said when he wanted to know something he would gaze at his idol of Christ and ask “What would Jesus do. “ This is prayer to any idol and is great sin.
6. Allowing blacks to enter the temple and the priesthood. Abraham 1 is clear that the blacks are a cursed race and cannot hold the priesthood. There was no revelation to Kimball. He lied! Eldred G. Smith caught these jackals in their lie and told them about it for which he was kicked out of the patriarchal priesthood of the Church. These are liars and frauds.
7. No common consent in the Church. You cannot vote against these frauds for any reason and still remain in good standing in the Church.
8. They serve mammon and not God. Monson stole 3 billion dollars from the Church treasury and built a Mall (City Creek) with the money. Not a peep from the members. What a disgusting person.
9. Changed temple ordinances. Every single temple ordinance has been changed except baptism contrary to what Joseph Smith said in “Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith”. They are frauds and this is just another indication of it. If the temple ceremony was received perfectly from heaven why did it need changing?
I’ll think of a few more but that should be enough to show you that what you believe is not correct and you’ve been lied to.
Soon the Lord is going to expose them and in that day you will have to admit to yourself that they are not who they say they are.
Oh by the way. Joseph Smith was a prophet of God and has many fruits that demonstrate that he was a prophet.
MC. We have a right to judge our leaders. That was given in the law of common consent. That law has been done away in the Church and you cannot vote against these frauds for any reason without being called into the Stake Pres office.
There is a scripture in the D&C that says that if the president sins he is to be brought to trial. Well, by golly I see lots of problems with these bunch of frauds and the scriptures and the Lord condemns them. I have said nothing and AB has said nothing that isn’t what God has already said about these guys.
You might consider what Nephi said. In the last days those who say all is well in Zion are being led carefully down to hell. That is what I would be concerned with rather than not judging evil. You had better learn what the commandments are quickly and learn to judge righteously before it’s too late. If you sustain evil which you are when you raise your hand to sustain them then you will be held accountable to God for upholding evil. You will have a hard time making it past the Telestial kingdom and will be led carefully down to hell as a result. IT54
Bitter much Anon Bishop? What has Denver the Snuffer prophesied, seen as a seer or revealed? Do you judge him with the same standard? Let us see.
Here is one of many prophecies by Denver Snuffer
DS Prophecy 28 Jun 2015
The restoration is about to be completely compromised by the institutional LDS organization. If we do not establish another way to avoid the coming catastrophe, the restoration will utterly fail. The movement begun now will seem very prescient in a few years. In coming days many people will want a place to land as the LDS Church undergoes changes to retain their standing, favorable tax status, popularity and wealth. People need a place to fellowship where they can function and learn how to preserve the restoration in a place that will be a refuge for those fleeing an increasingly corrupt organization.
What has begun may seem small, unnecessary and even rebellious at present. It will not be long before it is viewed very differently.
I don’t recall any instance in the scriptures or otherwise were the Lord specifically condemns the current church leadership. If you or AB or anyone else chooses to apply scriptures where the Lord speakes harshly against the Pharisees or warns of future hypocrates and deceivers towards the current apostles that’s your choice, but to say that the Lord has condemned them is untrue. We don’t know how he feels about them. We can see that there are problems in the church, but we cannot see the hearts of the brethren. Are they perfect, no, but they do much good. They serve, they admonish us to come unto Christ, keep the commandments, serve one another, and much much more. Why not acknowledge the much good that they do, instead of persistently pointing out their shortcomings and speaking evil of them? Unless you’ve stood in their shoes, felt the burdens and responsibilities they do, or even had a true glimpse into their hearts YOU have no right to judge them.
I have greatly pondered the passages you referred to in the BOM where Nephi warns about the danger of being at ease in Zion and thinking that all is well. All is not well in Zion, but the truth is that unless we’re living in the city of Enoch all will never be well in Zion. After much pondering I have come to the conclusion that the warning of not being at ease in Zion has more to do with always being on guard and not being complacent and comfortable, than it does with hitting the panic button and sounding the alarm that all is not well and that the church is now completely apostate or whatever. That’s not to say that there aren’t plenty of issue from top to bottom, but I don’t believe it’s as doom and gloom as you are the typical Snufferite would have us believe.
Here’s a question for you. If you believe that the Priesthood was taken away in 1978 over the issue of giving Blacks the priesthood, then why are you so adamant that President Packer didn’t see Christ prior to that as he claimed? It’s also worth noting that President Packer was adamantly opposed to giving blacks the priesthood.
While I don’t know your opinion on Denver Snuffer, or whether or not you hold him to be a prophet as he claims, but I will say this anyway. Anyone who accepts Denver Snuffer to be what he claims to be and accepts his teachings and interpretations of the scriptures has severely limited their spectrum of truth. Everything has to somehow fit into the teachings and views of Denver Snuffer. If Denver is not what he claims and is a fraud then you have zero chance of seeing things for how they really are. I suppose one could make a similar claim with the brethren, but the brethren haven’t claimed to have seen Christ more times than Joseph Smith, not to mention countless angels, again more than Joseph Smith did. Denver has made these claims and yet has never produced any revelations, prophecy, new scripture, miracles or anything other than some books, a blog, and a lecture series. Isn’t it very foolish and hypocritical to condemn the brethren for their shortcomings while ignoring Denver’s?
Please forgive the typos, dang smart phones lol
Sorry, but MAN this whole comment section seems to be going off the rails. First, how is the title of this post not sarcastic and to those of us who still respect these men regardless of their imperfections and not offensive? How can no one see that the title is lacking the love that everyone seems to be so full of here?? If I said your grandma was a money hungry, stinky old wench- would none of you take offense?
Second, talk about chasing will-o’-the-wisps! Imperfect men have always been a part of God’s kingdom’s affairs on earth and typically the men that stand in front of us are the ones that get no respect because, as with every time period, people prefer to pair themselves with one of the other much much much better (yet still very imperfect) guys. Many here are ranting about weak men leading the church and boy if Bro Joe was back things would be different- people ALWAYS say that! How is the Lord going to establish anything without weak man and women involved? Look for the weaknesses and you will find them. The alternative is the plan of salvation without the people- yes, far less messy, but of no value. And until you show me our modern day version of Samuel the Lamanite or a prophet who stands in obvious contrast to our Profits and Sewers, leaving the church is a dangerous course of action and premature at best.
If our Profits Sewers and Elevators aren’t cutting it for you, who is?? Other than leading people away from the restored gospel and writing some nice books, where is Denver’s revelation? For that matter, where is anyone else’s? You can’t throw the leaders of the church under the train and say they aren’t doing what the should be doing without showing examples of someone who is. Where is the alternative?
I agree that at times the leaders of the church drive me a little batty but so does my wife and I’m not leaving her. And don’t get me wrong- she is a powerful woman of faith and an attractive older one at that. Yes, other wives may look better at times and seem more spiritual at times and the natural man in me whispers life would be better with someone else, but I know better. Many here are upset that the brethren aren’t cutting it and are sure someone else could do a better job but we’ve heard that same argument from the days of Adam- heck, we heard it from Satan himself. I wonder if he didn’t tell us the Father wasn’t cutting it and he could do things better?? And quoting scripture, telling third hand stories about how he and others had been wronged by the Father and his fellow leaders and, boy the other Gods before him sure knew their stuff, all the time yelling “hey ya’ll, my plan is better than his”. And he led many of our brothers and sisters to a “better place” with better leaders.
Third, if you are looking for proof (aka “a sign”) that these men are of God, you may be disappointed. Looking for signs while you are firing bullets ain’t going to work.
I could go on but it is bed time and until the fault finding here takes a break, all the angry posts and bantering back and forth isn’t going to “fix” the church. If it is unfixable, why not move on as all apostates eventually do. But be prepared to keep up the anger levels because most of them can’t leave the church alone (strange isn’t it). They find themselves on blogs complaining about how the church is led astray while they attempt to lead others astray themselves. Pot meet kettle. If you find something else led by more perfect men who are healing the sick by the dozen and writing better revelation, send me a postcard. Until then, I suggest you look at your own life, how you are using your resources to help others and focus on the miracles worthy men and women can see and perform under any set of leaders.
An important point to keep in mind is that Denver hasn’t called himself a seer.
In Mosiah 8 it says that “a seer is greater than a prophet, and a gift which is greater can no man have”.
Since the mainstream officers explicitly claim this high title, it’s proper and merited to judge them according to it. Not only do they claim the title of Seer, but they demand, upon jeopardy of common members losing their temple recommends, that members raise their hand and recognize them as such, as well as confessing agreement with that title during individual worthiness interviews.
Given what the scriptures say about it, being a seer is a very rare thing, and it’s not obtained merely by being called into church office.
With regard to the title of “prophet”, a worthwhile starting point for understanding what that title means is available here: http://www.totheremnant.com/2015/01/prophets-part-4-presidents-popes-and.html
and here: http://secondcomforter.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/What-is-a-Prophet-10.30.2014.pdf
On a different note, your mockery of Denver’s name is not appreciated. Honest and even harsh criticism is not evil speaking, but mean-spirited mocking is (2 Kings 2:23), and you might be treading into that latter realm when you put a “the” before his last name and derisively make his name into a title.
AB has pointed out that the titles claimed by the mainstream officers are largely inaccurate, and therefore might as well be replaced with words that align with various corporate aspects of our culture. That is harsh and pointed criticism, but it is not mean-spirited mockery, and it does not involve a personal jibe against any of the officers.
Since you have brought up Denver’s last name in personal and mocking fashion, I think it’s worth pointing out that his name is actually quite unique and special, in a good way. Within the field of Placer Mining, a snuffer is a prospecting tool that draws gold particles from the water, as part of the arduous labor of separating out the gold from the grit and dirt around it.
Names don’t always have divinely symbolic meaning, but if Denver is the messenger that he claims to be, then I would suggest that his name is no accident, and mocking it would not be wise.
Nor is it wise to mock anyone in a personal or mean-spirited way. We are all children of God, and doing it to the least person is the same as acting that way towards God himself (Matthew 25:40).
I invite you to soften your position towards Denver and look more carefully at what he has written. It’s not about glorifying him or giving him honor. It’s about determining whether or not the message he has to offer is inspired or not.
Sometimes the members who oppose the mainstream are the most inspired and on-track:
Well said William.
One prediction based off bitterness? Anything else?
Without magnifying words and trying to write the “great American novel” as you have done, I will just say that I am also a former bishop also and, among other real and miraculous blessings I have participated in using the priesthood power to heal three complete quadriplegics since 1978. Your experience of losing power in the priesthood applies only to you. Don’t apply your lack of priesthood power either universally to others or to the church. I KNOW what priesthood power is. You seem to be clueless.
Your bigotry against the blacks and other races is not and has never been true revelation. The Spirit has never been stronger among the “Saints” either at the time of Joseph or Brigham that it is now among blacks in Africa. Brigham was NOT right about race. Your self-righteous prejudice, more mirrored at all levels in the current LDS church than you know, will keep you out of the Kingdom of Heaven unless you repent. Quote and magnify all the scriptures that you want. Real priesthood power comes directly from God to individuals who are faithful and worthy, not to the institutional church. The sealing power, the healing power and the Holy Ghost are all given to individuals, not to institutions. God is no respecter of persons. He said as much. He meant what he said. The current LDS church pretends to be inclusive but is full of prejudice and bigotry toward “inferior” races. You mirror that even though you deny their power and authority. It is clear to me that you and I will never agree on this point. However, I will not discriminate against or rail against those of different races. If that puts me in a different corner of heaven than you and those who are bigoted that is OK with me. Snuffer is NOT inspired to discriminate against those of a different race. God does support and is with those who marry interacially. You don’t like it? Take it up with God. In the meantime, I would take the word of an Iohani Wolfgramm or receive a blessing from a colored person of faith over that of a judgmental white bigot any day.
I don’t know if Denver’s last name has any relevance at all to what he is doing, but for what it’s worth the primary definition of snuffer is a metallic cone shaped object or scissor-like device that snuffs out the light on a candle, similar to how the light from a candle is being snuffed out on the cover of PTHG. I don’t put much stock into his name one way or the other, but it’s just as plausible, if not more so, that if his name has any significance it’s because he’s snuffing out the light of the restored gospel.
Denver is really good at what he’s doing. He appears so much like a true prophet in so many ways. He expounds the scriptures, testifies to having seen Christ and angels, and attempts to explain the controversies surrounding Joseph Smith and the early history of the church. He claims to provide the interpretation of the blood moons and other signs in the heavens. In many ways he tries to provide the things the brethren appear to lack. His followers all profess to know that he is a true prophet and that what he is doing fits the prophetic profile perfectly. It’s all very convincing, especially when one looks at the problems found in the church. The problem is when one really digs down and looks at his teachings and his fruits there are way too many holes for him to be what he claims. Though he never refers to himself as such, he claims to be a prophet called of God to condemn the church and gather the true elect to go build up Zion.
I myself find his claims very compelling and have nearly been deceived several times into believing that he is a true prophet, but ultimately I have come to the conclusion that he is a fraud and a false prophet. I don’t feel the spirit when I read his teachings or listen to his lectures. So many of his teachings just don’t hold water when closely examined.
I believe that he is being guided by an evil spirit and that all who accept him as such come under the influence of that same spirit. Joseph Smith taught about how this process works, that of false prophets and their followers being guided by false spirits. You can read all about it in The teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith beginning on page 202 entitled “Try the Spirits”.
Followers of Denver all sound very much the same. They all speak evil of the brethren and condemn them when Christ clearly taught on multiple occasions not to judge or condemn others. This is just one of the many fruits of Denver and the remnant that follows him that are false.
Everyone must decide for themselves what Denver is. For those who follow Denver I have a question. Is Denver the one mighty and strong spoken off in the D&C 85 who will set in order the church and give everyone their inheritance in Zion? If so who is the one who previously tried to steady the ark who fell by the shaft of death by the hand of God? I can’t think of anyone one who has previously made a serious attempt to steady the ark and fix the church. Could Denver possibly be this person, an iimposter who proceeds the true mighty and atrong servant of the Lord?
Great Kent. I know you don’t have any priesthood. But I do have a question for you. What do you think of the fact that Eldred G. Smith opposed the 15 liars and was kicked out of the patriarchal priesthood. They lied that the vote was unanimous. What do you think about that there buddy? And too you might comment on Abraham 1 where Abraham said that the blacks were a cursed race and could not have the priesthood. Was Abraham a liar then in your opinion? Did God change His mind? These are question that you need to answer.
It would be interesting to see if you are telling the truth about your experiences with the quads. Did they get better slowly? Or did you say arise and walk? There is something in the Church called the prayer of faith. That isn’t priesthood – it is simple a prayer that over time a person is healed. Priesthood is immediate as in the case of Peter. So it would be interesting to see how you healed them. I know you didn’t do it by the priesthood because of the scriptures. You have your little false prophet and a phony revelation to rely on.
You seem to like to dodge these questions. Why not talk about them for once and explain these things to me if you are able. Afterall – you are a former bishop and should be able to answer the Hard Questions – right? IT54
Hmmm Kent. We need to talk about this a little bit more. Christ called the the Canaanite women (black) a dog in Matthew 15:22. Now why would Christ call a black person a dog? Kent have you ever heard of gematria? Probably not since you are a former bishop and don’t know that much. In Hebrew which the scriptures were written in words have a numerical value. The word dog in Hebrew has a certain number. If another word is found that has the same number the word is interchangeable. Well by golly there is a word in Hebrew that has the same numerical value. And that is “evil plan”. Christ called the women a dog because from the pre-existence she supported the evil plan of Lucifer. Hence the reason for her being cursed.
So Christ and I are in good company. We are both bigots because we do not believe that the blacks can have the priesthood. Lucifer has really deceived you Kent. It was a great trap he set for you and you fell right in. You have no priesthood and you support evil and wicked men. Good luck with that. All is well in Zion Kent and Lucifer cheathith your soul and leads you carefully down to hell. IT54
No I don’t believe Denver is a prophet. Some here do – but I don’t. I don’t care what Denver thinks or does. I am only concerned with what the Lord says about the Church in the last days.
You are totally unaware of what the Lord has said about the Church in the last days. The scriptures about us are found in Isaiah, Hosea, and Ezekiel. There are many others but that is where the Lord talks specifically about us in the last days. You obviously don’t understand Isaiah and so you likely won’t agree. I printed a commentary on D&C 101 that says when we came to this valley revelation was cut off to the Church. Look at the D&C where are there ANY revelation since the last one given to Brigham Young. There are claims but not one revelation.
I pointed out a long list why I do not believe Packer had seen Christ. Let me quote another from Isaiah. focus on the word SEER in these scriptures. They are talking about us. We are the only ones since the time of Isaiah that call our prophets – seers and revelators.
Isaiah 29:9–10 (do I need to comment on these or are they clear enough)
9. Procrastinate, and become bewildered; preoccupy yourselves, until you cry for help. Be drunk, but not with wine; stagger, but not from strong drink.
10. The Lord has poured out on you a spirit of deep sleep: he has shut your eyes the prophets; he has covered your heads, the seers.
10. Their watchmen are altogether blind and unaware; all of them are but dumb watch-dogs unable to bark, lolling seers fond of slumber.
11. Gluttonous dogs, and insatiable, such indeed are insensible shepherds. They are all diverted to their own way, every one after his own advantage.
Isaiah 28 (this one is a little harder to understand unless you understand the metaphorical language of the Lord. Let me explain this one so that you understand it. I’m sure right now you don’t:
The garlands of glory are the wealth and prosperity of Ephraim today. We have become very prosperous in this place, particularly in the US. We have been fortunate to have had a good economy for most of our history. This land has been blessed with a plentiful sup-ply of the bounty of the earth. But the crowning splendor has become fading wreaths. Ephraim is drunk with the wine of Babylon. We have come to be so much a part of the world that we have fallen into idolatry and replaced our love of the Lord with our love of wealth and possessions.
Got it! Now read verse 7 and what it says about our prophet. You do know that Monson stole 3 billion dollars from the Church treasury to build a damn mall don’t you? When our dear prophet cut the ribbon he said “Lets Shop!” Boy that sounds like a prophet to me. Or more like profit!
1. Woe to the garlands of glory of the drunkards of Ephraim! Their crowning splendor has become as fading wreaths on the heads of the opulent overcome with wine.
2. My Lord has in store one mighty and strong: as a ravaging hailstorm sweeping down, or like an inundating deluge of mighty waters, he will hurl them to the ground by his hand.
3. The proud garlands of the drunkards of Ephraim shall be trodden under foot.
4. And the fading wreaths, the crowns of glory on the heads of the opulent, shall be like the first-ripe fruit before summer harvest: he who sees it devours it the moment he has hold of it.
7. These too have indulged in wine and are giddy with strong drink: priests and prophets have gone astray through liquor. They are intoxicated with wine and stagger because of strong drink; they err as seers, they blunder in their decisions.
8. For all tables are filled with vomit; no spot is without excrement.
These descriptions fit perfectly the Church today. Isaiah was carried away in vision and standing in Salt Lake City when he prophesied. He was writing in ancient Jerusalem and the people of Ephraim never saw his prophecies. That is because they are fulfilled in our day and there are those who understand the prophecies of Isaiah 2 Nephi 25:7–8
tell me what you think. IT54
Not looking for signs Will. I’m looking for these bunch of liars and phonies to start keeping the commandments of God for once. This morning in the Deseret News the spokesman for the church said that the Church WOULD accommodate same-sex marriage at a future date. They accept homosexuality. Imperfect? NO APOSTATE. IT54
I appreciate your comments MC.
Actually, IT54, the quote from the article goes like this:
“Otterson rejected the assertion that LDS boundaries on LGBT rights are established out of fear and hate of LGBT people as well as the idea that it’s only a matter of time before the church accommodates same-sex marriage within its doctrine.” And then he said this:
“Second, church boundaries on LGBT issues are doctrinal, based on LDS understandings of chastity and the purposes of marriage, life and human destiny.
“The doctrine of the church in relation to sexual morality — that sex is proper only between a married man and a woman — has not changed, and there is no sign whatsoever that it will change in the future,” Otterson said. “The law of chastity applying to heterosexual and homosexual behavior is inviolate.”
If you are going to continue to accuse, judge, insult, degrade, and “school” every person who comments on this blogpost, setting yourself up as THE authority on truth (no matter how totally variant it may be to the purpose of the original post), you ought to at least have your facts straight. Otterson actually said the opposite of what your preport.
And before you go off on me, let me remind you that you know nothing about me (nor anyone else who you have claimed to judge in this post). You don’t know my standing with the church, my beliefs in the restoration movement, nor my opinion on anything else. So if you even go there with me, it will continue to make you look foolish in the eyes of these readers.
I appreciate your comments as well Tom and also those of William. In the hand full of times that I have previously expressed my belief that Denver doesn’t exhibit the fruits of a true prophet and thus must be a false one on this blogs and others, I have never had anyone agree with me. In fact because no one ever seemed to see things the way I do, I doubted myself and thought maybe I was crazy and just not seeing what everyone else sees. I know for myself that Denver can’t possibly be the Lord’s true messenger. I’m thankful that I’m not the only one who feels this way. Thanks for having the courage to speak up.
Please share with the “holes” you have discovered in Denver’s teachings.
The one mighty and strong of the last days will be John the Beloved. He is also the Davidic King. He is a cousin of Christ and rightful heir to the throne of David. He is David the Prince. He will be the one who will gather the 12 tribes of Israel in the last days and establish the inheritances. He will restore all that was lost and replace the phonies that are head of the Church today. He is also the senior apostle who is still here on earth having been translated. Denver S isn’t him. It54
CherryAnn, Okay then I was wrong about this idea that the Church will accommodate the homosexuals at some point. But they have already accepted homosexuals as part of the BSA. About a year or so ago the Church told all the homosexuals that it was okay if they attended Church in the Seattle Washington area. The idea that the Church does not accept homosexuality is still false. You can be a homosexual in this Church and still be in full fellowship (as long as you aren’t practicing). In the Bay area of San Francisco there are wards there that have had homosexuals in their leadership positions. So the idea that the Church does not accept this is still wrong.
Salt Lake City has one of the largest homosexual population in the country. They have the biggest homosexual pride day in the country. Right here in the heart of Zion this abomination exists. Guess where another large center is. Tel Aviv in Israel. Lucifer knows where the House of Israel is located and puts pressure on Israel to accept this great sin.
Their recent decision to excommunicate married homosexuals was a breath of fresh air for once. Normally this doesn’t happen. They did cave in though and put pressure on the legislature in Utah to force renters to accommodate the homosexual community. So they do cave in on this issue as they did with the BSA.
As far as you go – don’t care who you are or what you’ve done. Not a big deal to me. What this Church does and the continued apostasy is what I’m looking at. I expect them to hold fast to commandments of God and stand as a bastion against the flood that has engulfed us. They have not done this and that is what I’m pointing out.
Go ahead and try to expose anything I say. I’ll be glad to acknowledge when I’m wrong. Does happen sometimes but I’m still right about the abortion, lose of priesthood because of the blacks, changed temple ordinances, idolatry, no common consent etc. You want to discuss them and tell me where I’m wrong be my guest. IT54
Actually, I don’t want to discuss all the points you continue to bring up by hijacking this thread. You seem very intent on plugging your talking points into everyone’s comments, and frankly, they don’t really belong here. Ever thought about starting your own blog?
In any case, I’m too busy trying to work out my own salvation before the Lord to really care any more about how and where the church went wrong. Focusing on its failures won’t save you, or anyone. The church and its leaders can’t save you, or me, or anyone. But Christ can! HE must be our focus. We must press forward towards HIM, learn to hear His voice, and put away our pride in order to find Him. Until then, we are all damned, whether in or out of the church, no matter how righteous we think we are, no matter how much we think we know, no matter our skin color and no matter the brand of sins we carry.
Coming unto Christ is where MY focus is. I pray that at some point you can put away your vitriol towards the church and your fellow brothers and sisters, no matter their color and no matter the sins and struggles they have, and just turn towards Christ. We are ALL desperate for His salvation! Even you ;).
Best wishes on your journey.
I have previously pointed out some holes in Denver’s teachings in the comment section of this blog on the post about “The Spirit of Prophecy”. As I recall no one has offered an explanation for some of the things I pointed out such as Denver completely changing his story on Joseph Smith practicing plural marriage and the validity of D&C 132. He used to teach that D&C 132 was an authentic revelation and that Joseph practiced plural marriage, but he has since back peddled off of that. He used to teach that the church still provided a valid baptism, but now it doesn’t. There is little to no scriptural support for the policy he has implemented about 7 women sustaining a man in the priesthood. There is no scriptural justification for being secretly rebaptized and joining a fellowship while retaining ones membership and activity in the LDS church (or a different church). I brought up these issues before as well as a few other ones, but neither you nor anyone else ever tried to explain these issues.
Be that as it may, there are many, many more. His 10 lectures were supposedly given to him by Christ, and yet they don’t sound anything like any other sermons or teachings in the scriptures. They sound like the words of a man and not the voice of the Lord. The voice of the Lord in the scriptures, whether His own or those of his servants, sounds very, very different. Not only that, but there are falsehoods and contradictions contained in them. Breaking them down in this comment section is impossible, but trust me there are errors in his lectures. It’s fine for someone to contradict themselves and teach some errors, but not when one claims that the words were given to them by Christ himself.
Denver declared in his last lecture that he is a true messenger and that anyone who rejects him will be damned. Since when has anyone been damned for not recognizing a true messenger, let alone an entire people? The Lord’s plan is not to damn all his children. If they don’t recognize a true messenger he’ll send another one. That is is pattern.
Denver was excommunicated because he wouldn’t pull PTHG off of the shelves and rewrite it. He was told that the book contained errors and had to be rewritten. He claims (as recently as a few days ago on his blog) that PTHG is the most correct description of church history ever written. He’s wrong, the book contains quite a few errors. If Denver had corrected the errors and complied with the request of his stake president he wouldn’t have been exed. So it appears his excommunication was justified, so why did the Lord take away the priesthood from the church over it and give it to Denver and his followers? Also, when in the scriptures did the Lord take away the priesthood from a group of men, let alone an entire church, and then give it to someone else? How many prophets did the Israelites reject and even kill in Old Testament times without losing the Levitical Priesthood? Yet we’re suppose to believe that the church lost the priesthood over excommunicating a man for writing a faith destroying book, with serious errors, when he refused to pull it and rewrite it? Seriously?
Denver’s second comforter doctrine is wrong. He stated in a recent blog post that the Book of Mormon was written for the purpose of documenting the many, many people who found there way back to the presence of the Lord while in mortality. He then listed several scriptures that supposedly clearly documented these events. I looked up about half of them yesterday and not only was there not a single one that I read that CLEARLY documented people returning to the presence of the Lord and seeing him in the flesh, but from what I could tell they all didn’t even allude to the fact that these people had received the second comforter. For example he used the account where Lehi had a vision where he saw a pillar, was shown a book, the destruction of Jerusalem, and the throne of God and Christ and the 12 apostles. This was clearly a vision of things to come and not a personal visit from the Lord making his calling and election sure. The other scriptural passages I read from his blog post where at best for similar visions and not physical appearances. The same thing goes for the way Denver handles the account of the first vision in PTHG. He describes it as an actual visit and that Joseph Smith had to have the High Priesthood since the prexistance in order for him to have been able to stand in the presence of the Father and the Son. And yet this experience is referred to as a vision by Joseph Smith and not a visitation like when Moroni appeared to him. There is a big difference between a vision and a visitation.
In a future day I will try and put together a rebuttal to PTHG, the lectures, and teachings from Denver’s blog. When I do I’ll make sure to get it out there via the comment section of this blog or perhaps in the totheremnant blog. Right now I’m finishing u brutal semester of college and am to busy to put it together. Over the summer I will try and put something together. In the mean time please look into some of these issues for yourself. Don’t just dismiss them. If Denver is the true messenger you take him as, he should be able to withstand a little scrutiny of his teachings.
Any thoughts on my question on whether or not Denver is the mighty and strong and who the imposter that proceeds the one mighty and strong is?
At the risk of being a hypocrite and trying to remove the mote from your eye prior to removing my own beam, let me point out a quick observation. Take it for what it’s worth.
You have judged me unrighteously. You assumed that I’m not aware of the prophecies in Isaiah, Ezekiel, and Hosea about the Ephramites of the last days. You are wrong. I am aware of those passages and know that they apply to the latter-day house of Ephraim, and not the one in Old Testament times. I do believe that those ancient prophets saw our day and are speaking about the church in those passages. I don’t blame you for not knowing that I was aware of these prophecies, but it just goes to show why the Lord has repeatedly told us not to judge others, as it is impossible to see their hearts. Okay now that I got that off my chest I can go back to work on the beam in my own eye.
I’ve only recently become aware of those prophecies you spoke of and still have much more I need to study and ponder on the matter, so I won’t try and provide any interpretation at this point. A couple of quick things to consider however:
The prophecy states that the Lord has caused a deep sleep to come upon the people and has covered the eyes of the seers. I believe something to that effect is mentioned in several prophecies, including the Book of Mormon (1 Nephi 28 I believe). If the majority of the church membership is asleep, including the brethren, how responsible are they for their actions? Are they largely sinning ignorantly? If they are largely sinning ignorantly, then can the Lord still work through them based on the desires of their hearts to serve him and follow him? I use to be asleep like everyone else, and yet I still received guidance and direction from the Holy Ghost on a regular bases as I kept the commandments to the best of my knowledge and did what I though the Lord wanted me to do. I realize now that I was misguided about some things in the past and am grateful that my eyes are now open, but I know for a fact that the Lord loved me in my blind state and still blessed me.
I don’t know the hearts of the brethren. I don’t know if they’re much like I was, or if they are sinning against a much greater light. This is why I don’t judge them. I choose to look at the good in them and not judge them for their faults, just as I don’t want to be judged for my faults. Christ said that he came into the world not to condemn it, but that the world through him might be saved. I believe in a merciful God who loves his children, even when we’ve gone astray, as we all do.
It’s also quite possible that the church has not yet gotten to the point were those ancient prophecies have been fulfilled. Perhaps we’re getting closer, but aren’t there yet.
On an unrelated note John Taylor received quite a few revelations, most of them had to do with plural marriage. Many of them were printed and some were even printed in the addition of the D&C in Europe. These never made it into the official D&C before the manifesto. Yes the revelations dramatically fell off with Joseph’s death and I know of no revelation in my lifetime, but there were still some revelations in early Utah to church Presidents and other leaders.
I’m very happy to hear that you have not accepted Denver Snuffer as a prophet. For a while there I though maybe I was the only one who had seriously studied his teachings and not accepted him as a true messenger. I wish that all those who do accept him as a prophet would see the error of their ways. I believe that most of his followers are honest seekers of the truth who have been deceived. If only they would see through his deception they would be so much better off. They could use their knowledge and love of the gospel of Christ for a much greater purpose, strengthening those around them and lifting people up. They could spend their time truly trying to follow the pure and simple teachings of Christ, instead of getting caught up with trying to have Christ appear to them or all of the other things Denver teaches are essential for salvation that are not. The gospel of Christ is so simple and pure, and yet Denver makes it sound so difficult. I believe that this idea that he continues to preach of the gospel of Christ being difficult and that salvation is extremely difficult to obtain is the biggest thing he’s doing to tear down peoples faith. I guess we’ll see what happens with him and the movement. I foresee trouble ahead for them.
It seems that many do not like the words of profit, sewers, and elevators in reference to the men that the church sustains “as” prophets, seers, and revelators. Ive never understood how the members of the church are able to assume that because they sustain these men to be something that then they automatically become such. Prophet, Seer, and Revelator is something that comes from The Lord and Him alone. And what the hell does professing alegiance to these men have to do with a persons worthiness to be able to enter the temple to worship? I love, respect and pray for these men but i have reached a point where i can no longer allow my children to be continually indoctirinated with the precepts of men, precepts that are not even mingled with scriptures anymore.
2 timothy 4:3-4 Describes some of what can be found in the current LDS church. 3. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctorine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4. And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
If a person understands what the book of mormon is teaching and warning us about it will become clear that ether the book of mormon is false and cannot be trusted or the current state of the church and those men at the head of it are false. The two contradict each other. So one is right and the other is wrong and we get to decide. When the church says that the living prophets take precedence over those in the scriptures they are saying that Jesus Christ’s teachings are below anything that is currently taught. This also says that the book of Mormon is not relevant for our day when in the same breath the church claims that it is the keystone of the religion.
Anyway their is a whole lot of profits in Salt lake, the sewers are overflowing, and the elevator is not going to the top floor like they are claiming. I would also like to give a few new definitions. I would call them Puppets, Queers, and Relegators. Puppets because they are completely controlled by another man, or group of men. They claim that the church is led by The Lord and then immediately say how grateful they are for the guidance and direction of their beloved prophet who stands at the head of the church. I have never sat in any meeting in the LDS church where The Lord has been invited, only His spirit is invited.
One of the original definitions of the word queer meant someone who is “strange or peculiar”. The church declares that we are a very peculiar people and we are, for both good and bad. I am in no way applying this definition to the way that are current traditions would apply it.
To relegate something means to move something to a position of less authority. In the back of The Promised Messiah written by Bruce R McConkie he says that the progress of the church can be measured in terms of the number of the elders of Israel for whom the veil has been rent and who have seen the face of Him whose we are. Elder Oaks recently taught that to seek the face of our Lord in this life is a common tool used by the advesary while ending that very same talk “in the name of Jesus Christ” who he had just relegated to a position of lesser authority. I can think of no more extreme way of taking our Lord’s name in vain than by declairing that to seek Him in this life is a tool of satan and then ending that same talk in the name of our Lord assuming that he was ok with everything that had just been said.
Try pondering on that one for more than a minute without puking.
The scriptures cannot be more clear. When the gentiles reject the fulness of the gospel it will be taken from them. Because of the hardness of their hearts they will reject plainness. Or as Jacob says, they wanted something they could not understand, they looked beyond the mark, so the Lord allowed them to break themselves on the anvil they were dragging instead of allowing our Lord to carry it for them.
Right at the beginning of the book of mormon we are warned about what happens when a man bids us to come follow him.
1nephi 8:5. We assume that because this man was in a white robe that he must be some righteous dude and that it is ok to follow him.
A true prophet will NEVER bid anyone to follow them. He will call you to repentance, expound scripture, and point you to Christ while trying to hide himself behind the cross in an attempt to not be noticed. A true prophet will never demand allegiance to him or any other man in exchange for salvation that he claims can only come through the keys that he holds.
I cant help but think that if the current LDS idealogy could be written down to be viewed by others in a thousand years that it would read exactly as what is currently written in the Book Of Mormon. Because it is the vision of all “in the words of a book” but is sealed, according to Isaiah 29: 11–18. The reason this vision of all is sealed is beacuse we are so damned hard hearted that we refuse to look past the traditions that our fathers have given us.
……..if we do not change the path we are on we are likely to end up where we are going.
Well said, Dan!
Well Cherry, this blog is the exact place to talk about these issues because AB has pointed out the corruption and evil of the 15 apostates that run this Church. You are correct that Christ is the one who saves. The Church however if it were still true would provide the ordinances of salvation which it does not now do. The idea that it doesn’t matter what color you are is wrong of course as I have pointed out FROM SCRIPTURE. Lucifer has won a great victory in brain washing you into believing that lineage is not important. That was never the case in this Church. When the missionaries went out they found Israel. Not nonIsrael, Not Canaanites (blacks) but Israel.
The Church has apostatized now and salvation is not found there. That is what AB is pointing out. If you want to comment on anything I say please feel free. I will do the same when you attempt to put out false propaganda that is not found in the Scriptures and is against what the Lord has said. IT
Thanks MC for that clarification. There are a number of folks here that defend the apostate Church no matter what. At least you have studied somewhat in the ancient prophets to see that there is a problem.
I’ve also studied the ancient prophets and as I compare the prophecies about the Church to what the Church is doing I see that they are the same. When you say that you believe the brethren are acting ignorantly I can tell you from the prophets that they are not. They are led by Lucifer now and are leading the people astray knowingly. The Lord calls them His enemies and He says He is going to destroy them and expose them for what they are doing. Most of the members according to Isaiah and the BOM are having their souls cheated by Lucifer and the leaders are the ones that are doing the deceiving. So be careful as to what you sustain. You will be held accountable.
According to D&C 101 revelation was cut off to the Church after the Church arrived in this valley. This is found in verses 44-62. Hosea says the same thing in Hosea 2:15–17 and especially Hosea 3:4. Therefore John Taylor did not receive any revelations because it ended with the last one to Brigham Young before coming to this valley. When John Taylor wanted something to change in the Church he sat down a penned a revelation. I’ve read them and they have no metaphorical language in them which is the language of the Lord. You can tell when you read them that they are phony. I’m afraid ol John Taylor might enter the category of False Prophet because of this. I like the earlier brethren of this Church actually because most were good men and tried to do the right thing in many cases. They did start running after Babylon which is why revelation was cut off to them. I do not believe that any of them other than Joseph Smith will be exalted however because of their failings. The brethren today are far different from them. They are liars and deceivers and the scriptures tell us clearly who they are. We are told to avoid them and not sustain their actions.
Abortion is a good issue. Why would you support such a thing. Yet the Church says it’s okay in certain circumstances. All abortion is murder and the Lord states that fact in Isaiah.
So we can sit back and talk about the apostasy of the Church. You see that there is some good but from the scriptures I see that actually isn’t the case.
Nice talking to you MC. IT54
“Dan” the man your style of writing is almost verbatim to AB. Is “Dan” really AB? And who is this AB anyway?
I don’t blaim you for looking at the prophecies in the Old Testament about latter-day Ephraim and thinking that we’ve gone completely off the rails, and that the members are nothing but blind followers of corrupt and conniving leaders.
While I understand your view, I look at things a little differently.
First of all I don’t think things are as bad as you think. Let me explain.
I agree with you that the church leadership’s softened stance towards abortion and homosexuality is concerning. However you make it sound like we have fully embraced these two evils, or that we’re very close to doing so. In my opinion this is not the case, and I pray that we will never get to that point. It’s not like a substantial part of our active membership is having abortions (regardless of the reason). Our leaders do not advocate having abortions, though they do make allowances for it under certain circumstances in church handbooks. I agree with you that abortion is murder, at least in most cases. If we were advocating abortions and it was a common practice in the church then I would I agree that we are completely apostate.
Same thing goes for homosexuality. The softened stance is concerning, but some of it I understand and even agree with. I have friends who struggle with same sex attraction and have even been previously sexually active, but have repented and are doing all they can to be chaste by living a celibate life. I see no problem with them having a calling or even a temple recommend. I love them just like I would anyone else. We’re all sinners after all. If the church were preaching that same-sex marriage and relations were perfectly normal and if our active membership were doing those things I would agree that we are completely apostate.
The love of money and class distinctions among church members is a much bigger problem than anything else in my opinion. You’ll get no argument from me there, but I will point out that class distinctions will always exist to some degree without the law of consecration, which the Lord took from us back in Joseph’s day and replaced with tithing. In fact the law of consecration has only been successfully lived on a handful of occasions. There are still many members whose hearts are not set on riches. I suspect that this problem will continue to get worse though.
I often think of 4 Nephi were the people lost their Zion society and before too long became so apostate that they became ripe for destruction and were destroyed. I wonder where we’re at at this point. Are we closer to Zion or closer to destruction? I believe we’re somewhere in the middle, but where exactly I don’t know.
Regardless of where we are on that spectrum, the question is what does the Lord want us to do about it? What good does it do to dwell on the negative when there’s still some positive (in my opinion a lot of positive)? I think about the prophet Mormon. He knew about the prophecies that the Nephites were going to be wiped out. He knew the people were so apostate that they were ripe for destruction, and yet what did he do? He stuck with them. He loved them with a pure love of Christ. For a time he withdrew from them and left them to fend for themselves, but then he ultimately went back and stood with them until the end. I don’t believe that he was damned for continuing to “sustain” them. For a time he tried to preach to them, but the Lord forbid him. And yet he stayed and did all he could to serve them and lead them, even though he knew it was a lost cause. He continued to look for the good in them and never gave up on them, no matter how bad things got.
I intend to try to be like Mormon. I’m going to stick it out until the bitter end, doing all I can to serve and love and try to lead whoever I can to a higher place. I don’t think things are anywhere close to as bad in the church today as with those apostate Nephites of Mormon’s day, but no matter what I’m staying with them and am going to do all I can until the one mighty and strong comes and the Lord cleans things up.
That’s what I intend to do, you must decide what you will do.
Well said MC and Tom. Thanks for your clear, simple comments. After the thousands of posts here and on similar gatherings by the angry and disenfranchised, one simple point is important. Where is Denver and all of these discussions leading people? To another prophet full of revelation and prophecy? To a new restoration?
No, it leads people away from THE restoration to a man who claims it isn’t about him and who has created a fractured mess in a free-for-all of communities with cafeteria style beliefs. Christ came to clarify and restore his gospel to Joseph as he came to restore before when he lived on earth himself. If Denver is here to set forth yet another restoration, why is it so revelation and visitation free and why is it such a mess?
I like the clever pun in the title as it implies that, in sustaining the leadership, one is sustaining their expenditure of billions of dollars in sacred funds on rather unsacred ventures such as the “great and spacious” shopping mall, a construction project that entailed, among other things, sewers and elevators, ultimately for the profit of the corporation of the president. However, I think it is a step too far to apply the expression to the current leaders themselves.
Although I agree that they are not truly prophets, seers, and revelators (though I used to believe they were when I was still a Mormon), I concede that they are well-intentioned devotees to a religion that they take almost as seriously as they take themselves. They play the role that they were taught from their childhood or from their convert-conversion. They probably have never seriously considered any other perspective. Thus, Mr. Bednar, for example, with his lifetime of faithful adherence to Mormon teachings, probably really does believe he has risen to such heights of spirituality that he has become “scripture,” as he is alleged to have identified himself. When the Mormon authorities declare that they are “special witnesses” without actually having anything more than an intensely stubborn conviction, they are continuing a familiar pattern established early in their LDS journey when they bore their clichéd testimonies while likely shedding the self-induced tears they took to be evidence of the Spirit. Most Mormons are well acquainted with the feeling. Admittedly, for many years I suffered from similar self-delusions, feeling and expressing certainty that I knew the claims of Mormonism to be true. My guess is that the current LDS “prophets,” like ordinary Mormons, really believe in their own delusions. I respect those well-meaning but misguided LDS leaders and members for their earnestness and sincerity, just as I acknowledge the probable genuineness of belief of leaders and adherents of all other peaceful religions.
However, I am less tolerant of the originators of false religions, the real false prophets, those charlatans who deliberately deceive others. Little is more despicable than falsely claiming to have revelations from God and then establishing false doctrines, commandments, rituals, marital experiments and societal structures that bind and corrupt the minds of gullible people. It is especially devious when the founders of such religions implement systems of intimidation, terror, and violence designed to maintain order, ensure loyalty, and promote growth of the organization. And nothing is more arrogant than claiming to be exalted to the position of God.
To their credit, having inherited the baggage associated with their religion, the leaders of the Mormon Church in the last several decades have been trying to shed some of its corrupt ideas and practices. Though they have made some notable missteps, they have, in degrees almost imperceptible, tried to Christianize it as much as possible. I give them credit for trying to give the church a more Christ-centered focus; however, their efforts will always miss the mark, for it is impossible to morph a theology of infinite polytheism, materialism and man-worship into the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Mormonism’s founders denied the essential nature of God as the one, infinite, supreme, eternal being who caused the existence of matter and who initiated our existence. Further, they denied the sufficiency of the blood of God’s sacrificial Lamb. These are colossal blasphemies against the one and only God, who described Himself as a jealous God.
I hope that all Mormons, those very sweet and gentle people whom I love and with whom I miss associating, and even the current leaders of the church, will awaken to the deception they have been following, turn to the Biblical God and leave behind the impossible theology of Mormonism. No matter how much anyone tries to make Mormonism true, it will still be founded on blasphemy. Our endeavor should not be in getting back to the original complex web of fanciful doctrines imagined by Mormonism’s founders, but instead in seeking to understand more fully the Gospel of Jesus Christ as provided in the Bible.
Freemasons/Gaddiantons…been taken over years ago…remnant of lehi (native american) they are not, so they cannoy build Zion. only maybe assist
Dave, Those views are truly apostate in my view. You didn’t say that Joseph Smith was a liar and a fraud but you insinuate it. Joseph Smith was the prophet of the restoration. He brought forth over a 1000 pages of new scripture. The language of those scriptures destroy any argument you might have against him because the fit into the gospel frame the Lord established long about. Apostate murder our beloved prophet. He spent his life bringing forth the truths of the gospel only to hounded by apostate Christianity. I don’t know anything about your views on religion but they certainly don’t fit this blog. This blog is about the apostasy of the current leadership. You don’t condemn them because they have become more like the world.
We could discuss the restoration and the doctrines if you wish. I’ll defend all of them in regard to Joseph Smith. IT
I have a good buddy that thinks as you do that something can be done to reform the Church. He believes as I do however that the Church is a state of complete apostasy. Over the years he has remained active in the Church whereas I haven’t. We both belonged to the same ward for years but he has moved on to a different town in Utah.
We both understand the idolatry of the saints. There was a lesson given in Church in Sunday School in which the teacher brought up the fact that we should have these abdominal pictures of deity in our homes. My good buddy commented to a councilor in the bishopric that this was not correct and he shouldn’t be teaching such a thing. What do you suppose happened? He was summoned to our Stake President office and reprimanded for his commenting to his leader. It went something like this. How dare you counsel your leaders in anything! They asked him some questions about what he believed and he was quite honest in his answers. He answered them using scripture as the bases. No matter though at some point they placed the standard works on the table and an Ensign. He was asked which one he accepted. He picked up the standard works for which they yelled. Your WRONG! He was told to read only the current leaders and not bother with those dead prophets. They took away his temple recommend and removed him from home teaching and all callings and threatened him that if he continued he would be excommunicated. Shortly after which within I’d say a year or two he moved to another stake. No matter though my little stake president called his to give him the report for which he was called in. He fared much better over there however and it was soon learned that he wasn’t out to destroy the Church but that he had an opinion of what is right and wrong in the Church. BTW I consider that stake president who has been released now a wicked man because of his actions. But that’s beside the point.
Today he is still active and has home teaching and a calling in the Church. But he still believes as I do that the priesthood is gone, that Monson does not receive revelation, saints are idolaters and other things as well. You’ve read over the list in other posts.
So I asked him a while back if he had made any progress in reforming the Church. His answer? – No not one bit. He cannot comment in Church on things that he knows are wrong but he just goes along. On occasion he’ll comment in Sunday School on things but it’s pretty much within established limits. He says he just goes and reads the scriptures while there. His wife wants him to go and he does it more to appease her than anything else.
So he said to me that I should go and do the same as he is doing. I said no I can’t. I can’t sustain wicked men who teach the people to sin. I can’t sit there in Sunday School or priesthood meeting and lap up the false doctrine that abounds in the Church today without saying anything. I spend my Sundays instead studying the scriptures and doing what I can to prepare for what is coming. I feel perfectly satisfied with my course of action because I know what the Lord thinks of the present Church, its leaders, and the people. I know what the Lord says about the so-called good works of the members. He doesn’t care about them because they don’t keep the commandments. This is all found in Isaiah who is our prophet for the last days in my opinion.
Well, that’s where I’m coming from. I can see why Anonymous Bishop wants to stay anonymous. He will be excommunicated if he comes forth. My good buddy was threatened for much less than what AB is doing. IT
Like I said I can understand why you feel the way you do. Perhaps you’re right and I’m naive. Or perhaps I’m right and you are too concerned with seeing the problems and not seeing the good that still exists in the church. I suppose all of us are wired differently and won’t see things exactly the same way.
I haven’t had my eyes open for very long, though I have noticed problems here and there for a while. I wasn’t even born yet when the Priesthood was given to Blacks back in 1978, so I can’t comment on whether or not there was any difference in priesthood power prior to that, or not. Though I’m fully aware of all the changes to the Temple over time and especially in 1990, it also happened before my time. So obviously I have a different perspective and vantage point on some of the issues than you do. Perhaps as I study more and observe more I will see things differently, but at this moment I still see a lot of good and I pray that I will always will.
As some one who as only recently began to wake up, I have gone through a wide range of emotions on the state of the church and what I should do. I was beginning to despair when I came across several essays by a guy named Curt Porrit who gave me hope. As I said I intend to stick it out in the church, loving and serving, and doing whatever good I can. That’s what I believe the Lord wants me to do. That may not be the right path for you.
Like you I also worry about false indoctrination, not only for myself and my wife, but especially for our young children. It’s certainly going to be a challenge, especially as they become teenagers, but I trust that I’ll figure out what to do.
The story about your friend being disciplined for counseling a member of the bishopric and then for holding the scriptures in higher regard than the ensign is disturbing. I’m glad that he is in a better situation now. I wouldn’t put too much blame on his former stake president for doing what he did. Without knowing any of the circumstances I would bet he was doing what he thought was right, though it was misguided.
Just to clarify I don’t think that the church can be reformed by men, and especially not by me, only the Lord can do that. That doesn’t mean that I don’t think I can make a difference though. I will try to all the good I can. At some point the one mighty and strong will come and clean things up and give the righteous saints their inheritances in Zion as promised.
One more thought. Things me be worse in Utah and especially in the Salt Lake Valley than elsewhere. I’m down in Arizona and things don’t seem nearly as bad in the church as what I keep hearing about Utah. Beside my two months in the MTC I have never been to Utah. I haven’t seen Temple Square or City Creek Mall or anything accept for the MTC and the Provo Temple. I do plan to visit Salt Lake soon though, as a sister of mine has recently moved there.
It’s been nice chatting with you and hearing your perspective. While I respect your views towards the church and the brethren, I encourage you to try and look for the good. I promise you that if you will soften your heart and look for the good that you will find some. There is good and bad among all people. I think most, if not all, people have both good and bad in them. I encourage you to look for the good and try to love people the way Christ loves even the vilest sinner.
45 And charity suffereth long, and is kind, and envieth not, and is not puffed up, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil, and rejoiceth not in iniquity but rejoiceth in the truth, beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
46 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, if ye have not charity, ye are nothing, for charity never faileth. Wherefore, cleave unto charity, which is the greatest of all, for all things must fail—
47 But charity is the pure love of Christ, and it endureth forever; and whoso is found possessed of it at the last day, it shall be well with him.
48 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, pray unto the Father with all the energy of heart, that ye may be filled with this love, which he hath bestowed upon all who are true followers of his Son, Jesus Christ; that ye may become the sons of God; that when he shall appear we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is; that we may have this hope; that we may be purified even as he is pure. Amen.
I appreciate when you are detailed in your answers and responses.
Facts are stubborn things Kent. Here we have clear scripture that tells you and the leaders that the blacks are of a cursed race.
Abraham 1:24 When this woman discovered the land it was under water, who afterward settled her sons in it; and thus, from HAM, sprang that RACE which preserved the CURSE in the land.
And also the fact that they could not have the priesthood
Abraham 1:27 Now, Pharaoh being of that lineage by which he could NOT have the right of Priesthood, notwithstanding the Pharaohs would fain claim it from Noah, through Ham, therefore my father was led away by their idolatry.
Call me names if you want there Kent you ol Bishop, but from what I can tell you either don’t understand the scriptures or you refuse to believe them. Joseph and Brigham knew these scriputures and kept the commandments of God. That is something your wicked leaders and yourself do not do. Please feel free to rip Abraham 1 out of your Pearl of Great Price. You’ll be able to sleep better at night knowing that you are PC. IT
Sorry if you guys felt the opposite. I truly felt spiritually fed and had some of the issues I was worried about address while I listened to and later read the latest Conference.
I believe you Tom. A lot of truth is spoken over the mainstream LDS pulpit, and prayers are answered.
But this is also true in many other denominations. Authentic spiritual experiences are had by many different peoples who are seeking truth and striving to connect with God. The Lord uses any minister (Christian or otherwise) to the exact extent that the person heeds the Spirit in area x, y, or z, and is worthy to convey whatever pearl of truth.
The truth(s) that ministers transmit usually come packaged with some false doctrine, due to extrapolations / misinterpretations of the minister, but that doesn’t entirely negate the good that is there.
One of the most toxic things about mainstream LDS culture (and many other denominations) is that when the Spirit strives with whoever, upon whatever subject, this is interpreted to be a categorical proof (or nearly categorical proof) that everything is on track with regard to the culture as a whole. In other words, the “all is well in Zion” fallacy.
That attitude represents a misunderstanding or ignorance of D&C 130:20–21, which teaches us that blessings are highly compartmentalized. In other words, a culture can be horribly off track in many important areas, but a single glimmer of truth can still shine through and afford rich blessings to those who honor and obey that truth.
This is why Catholics, Lutherans, Methodists, Episcopalians, etc., can adamantly sing praises to their creeds and cultures as being superior to all the others. They have had authentic experiences with the Spirit, and they conclude that others don’t have the same level of access to the Spirit that they have.
It is a fallacy of composition (mistaking a fragment for the whole) and it is this kind of thinking that entraps every person who is not 100 percent seeking with real intent to know God for who and what he really is (see Isaiah 28:13 and Jeremiah 29:13).
It is a frightening and devastating thing to seek God without compromise. It requires destruction and rebuilding of one’s worldview time after time. I’m not saying I’ve got it all figured out, but I think I’m far enough along the path to know that you have to be willing to take a sledgehammer to the Sistine Chapel of your worldview on a regular basis. It is agonizing and heart breaking. Little children do it without much trouble, they rebuild their universe on a daily basis in order to make room for new information, but for adults it is very painful and unnatural.
If and when you come to appreciate that the good things you experience within the LDS mainstream are not unique to our culture, maybe then you will being to recognize how grievously off track we are in some areas of the gospel.
Word. I will give away all my sins, and take a sledgehammer to the Sistine Chapel of my worldview, on a daily basis, to know Him.
Not all the good things I experience within the LDS are only in this church. There are obviously great Methodists, Catholics and so on many of them are my friends and I have attended many different religions actually, and they do have spiritual experiences there. But…the fulness of the Gospel is with the LDS church and much more of the gifts of the Spirit as well.
Tom, Why isn’t the gifts of the spirit manifest in neither the 12 apostles nor the 1st presidency? I talked to a friend of mine about an experience he had. His nephew was working on a car a while back and it slipped off the jacks and broke his neck. His brother happened to know Pres Monson personally and so he called him up and he came over to the hospital to give the young man a blessing. The young man died a few days later without any improvement at all. I’ve heard other stories such as this. My same friend called a general authority to give his wife who is quite ill a blessing. Same thing happen = nothing – no healing – nothing. In fact she got worse after the blessing. That was a number of years ago and she continues to suffer terribly.
Recently Bidnar asked in a blessing to a person if she had the faith NOT to be healed. Imagine that – here was a person who specifically called for a blessing and he couldn’t do it. Do you suppose that they know they don’t have the gifts of the spirit nor the priesthood? I kind of think so. It is clear that the gifts aren’t present anymore and particularly they aren’t present in the 15 so-called apostles and so-called prophets downtown.
When Paul was shipwrecked on the island of Melita in the Mediterranean Sea he healed everyone on the island. After Paul was bitten by a snake and received no harm the people on the island recognized that he had healing power and brought all of their sick to him to be healed. Don’t you suppose that today if these charlatans had the priesthood that if someone was healed as in the manner of the ancient apostles that it would be noised through the Church and throughout the world? Don’t you suppose the Church would be increasing in faith and membership instead of people leaving in droves because the gifts aren’t present anymore?
Over 50 years ago before the priesthood was removed because the blacks were given the priesthood Matthew Cowley was blessed with the gift of healing. He went around the Church healing members of the ailments. Today we don’t hear of this. In fact the opposite is true.
The same is true of the Catholic Church. I saw that on one of the pope’s recent trips to a foreign country that people came from all over to be blessed and healed. Not one of them was healed.
The same is true when the apostles travel. Nothing happens and yet they are regaled as the pope is when he travels. I see very little difference between the two. These stand as a witness as Anonymous Bishop has documented on this site that even though this Church had the fullness of the gospel it has fallen into apostasy just as all the dispensations have done so in the past.
Another example is the 4 poor hapless missionaries in Belgium that were terribly hurt in the terrorist attack. I saw pictures of the apostles visiting them in the hospitals here on the Wasatch Front. I’m sure they gave their blessing to the missionaries and yet nothing ever happens. You don’t see them healed nor walking out of the hospital. Same is true after the tragedy in Belgium. You would think that if the priesthood was still here you would see the gifts in operation in the apostles at least don’t you think?
You and others tell us that the gifts are present in the Church. Where is the evidence! IT54
I agree with you. There is a lot of good among other Christians who truly try to follow Christ. At the same time there’s still something different about the truly faithful LDS. The faithful, righteous LDS have a light in there eyes and a spirit about them that can’t be found any where else. In my opinion it is the light of Christ. Faithful Christians of other faiths sometimes have a very similar light, but it’s usually not quite as bright. I don’t know if the LDS currently have the fulness of the gospel, but in my opinion there’s no better place to be. Other Christian faiths don’t have the BOM, D&C, or PGP. And because they don’t have these scriptures to alluminate the Bible they have a lot of misconceptions.
Obviously you wouldn’t be reading this blog if you thought all was well in the LDS church, but just because all is not well doesn’t mean that the church is completely apostate or wicked or even no better than any other Christian sect. Those who think this way are wrong. In my opinion the best course of action is to stay in the church while doing all that one can to follow Christ and keep his commandments as contained in the scriptures. We need to put our trust in God and in his word (the scriptures) and not in the arm of flesh, and especially not in those voices on the internet who claim to have it all figured out and are cry lo here and lo there like in Joseph’s Smith’s youth. We know that the Lord established this church and that He is at the head of it. He will clean things up when the time is right.
Thanks again MC. Obviously not all is well in Zion, we have tons of issues in church culture. Just like in the Book of Mormon the Savior when he appears will have plenty of teaching and training and corrective action for His kingdom on earth. I know of instances where the gift of healing has been manifest though it does not seem to be as much as in the scriptures I agree. And we know of course sometimes it is not the Lord’s will for someone to be healed. But I know without a doubt the gifts of the spirit are in the church, much much more than anywhere else on earth.
Are you saying D. Snuffer has the gift of healing or similar gifts, like unto those early in the restoration and those of ancient times? Does anyone else?
Odd comment Tom, You see the gifts in the members but not in the 15 so-called apostles/prophets downtown. Denver has the spirit or gift of healing but not the Church? How odd. You support the Church but it’s off track? The members are somehow blessed with the gift of healing but not the leaders. How odd. Your view seems to be upside down. Therefore, in your view the members must be more righteous than the leaders?
I should say though that healing is present in the Church however through the prayer of the faithful. Sick members have prayers offered on their behalf by other members. As a result the Lord blesses the sick and in some cases (certainly not all) they are slowly healed over a period of time. This is not immediate as in the case of the priesthood. However, this is not the gift of healing. All religions have access to this blessing through prayer. This is not what I’m talking about. I’m talking about what Paul, Peter, Joseph Smith, and what Matthew Cowley did. This is not something that is present in the Church today. It has been taken and that is evident. At least you see and acknowledge some of the apostasy by stating that all is not well in Zion. What more contrast can there be between the lack of gifts in the leaders as compared to when the priesthood was still here. IT54
I don’t know if we currently possess the mighty gifts of the spirit that the scriptures say will follow the true believers or not. I have seen people healed and I have seen other gifts, such as the gift of tongues, but these have been very rare occasions and not as powerful as what’s described in the scriptures.
I think IT54 has a point when he compares and contrasts the spiritual gifts of the apostle Paul to those present in the church today. In my opinion it’s pretty obvious that we don’t have those gifts to the same degree as Christ’s ancient apostles, or the 12 Nephite disciples, or even during the early years of the restoration when Elder’s would heal people by commanding them in the name of Christ to take up their beds and walk, and the afflicted would be instantly made whole. Does that mean our current priesthood blessings are a sham? I don’t think so. But I do wonder sometimes how much of it is faith and how much is priesthood power. It’s hard to say.
While I’m no expert on Denver Snuffer or his followers I definitely haven’t seen any evidence that Denver possesses those mighty spiritual gifts that appear to be lacking in the church at large. I don’t know of any accounts of Denver having healed anyone, or cast out devils, or spoken in new tongues, or having been poisoned and surviving. Nor am I aware of any of his followers claiming these gifts. There has been some talk of them having vision and dreams, but that doesn’t prove anything. They could easily be deceived by false spirits appearing to them. (Which is what I think is happening to them.)
You’ll notice that not one of Denver’s followers has tried to address the issues surrounding Denver that a brought up earlier in the comments of this post. I would suspect that at least 3 out of 4 people that read this blog and especially of thise that comment on posts accept Denver’s claims as true and yet not one has had the guts to address the issues that I clearly pointed out. Helorum has now called me out twice asking for examples of holes and inconsistencies in Denver’s story. Both times I’ve provided him with quite a few examples and both times he doesn’t ever reply let alone try to explain the issues.
I’m not holding my breath for him or any other Denver follower to try and explain the issues I brought up. The issues can’t be explained because Denver is a false prophet. I only hope that those faithful Denver followers will at least examine the issues I’ve pointed out and search their hearts. If even one Denver follower sees the error of their ways because of what I have written, or if even one person who would have otherwise followed Denver amd now doesn’t my efforts will not have been in vain.
Keep the faith. Follow your heart and the holy scriptures. Things aren’t as bad as AB and the haters on here make it sound. All is not well in Zion, but it’s not time to hit the panic button either.
You are assuming or trying to twist my words. I never said the First Presidency and Quorum of the 12 don’t have the gift of healing or other gifts of the spirit. I believe they do in a greater portion than the members.
I am asking you if you claim D. Snuffer or anyone else has the gift of healing that you claim the First Presidency/Quorum of the 12 doesn’t have because you have heard of occasions when some weren’t healed?
The church is not off track but just as in the Book of Mormon when the Savior returns he will have some things obviously to train and give clarification on. Many things in the church culture are obviously not perfect.
Once upon a time there was a beautiful woman in a beautiful court. In fact, this beautiful woman was queen of the entire country. Her husband, the king, was always present to hear matters of the government and attend to those in his court including his wife. After a while the king told his queen that matters required him to travel afar off, but he would return when the time came. He told her he would leave 15 men in charge of her and the court. She was to listen to these men and do whatever they said. She agreed and soon the king and his entourage road off.
Many years passed. Day after day the 15 men attended to their duties and the people in the court followed them in all they said and did. Well, many did follow except for a few. Over in the corner of the court a small group was gathered discussing the current affairs of the state.
MC: This is sure a glorious day isn’t it Tom. But I’m a little bit worried. The queen isn’t talking very much of late. In fact, she isn’t very active at all.
Tom: Oh don’t worry about that. The other day I saw her move a little bit. I haven’t heard her talk much, but I’m sure it’s only because she doesn’t have too much to say. We need to cut her some slack.
IT54: Tom and MC your mother is dead and has been for many years.
Tom: nonsense she is the most beautiful queen in the world. Look at her – isn’t she radiant? Why just the other day I was dancing with her.
IT54: Tom you were doing the Waltz with her but she wasn’t moving at all. You had to literally carry her the entire time.
Tom: Nonsense I wasn’t carrying her at all – she was gliding across the floor beautifully.
MC: I have noticed that she looks a little bit ill of late. Not a lot of life in her, but I still think she is okay.
IT54: Haven’t you noticed that she isn’t breathing? Not only that, but she is looking a little bit darker because she is dead and the blood is draining from her.
Tom: you racist! That isn’t a dark complexion – that’s beauty and diversity.
IT54: no Tom that’s a sign of death and has nothing to do with diversity. The world tells you this but it is a sign of death. She even stinks a little bit. Can’t you smell that odor?
MC: oh IT54 you just hate the queen. I do smell a little bit of odor however but I’m sure if we sprinkle some perfume on her that will go away. Maybe she just needs a bath.
IT54: No MC I don’t hate her at all. In fact I danced with her as well until I noticed that something was wrong. As I looked at her I could see that something wasn’t right about her. I had to do all the movement when we danced. She didn’t make any movement at all.
The queen died about 38 years ago. If you look at the facts you’ll see what I mean.
AB: I can see something wrong too but I think that if we all just get along everything should be fine. Everyone tells me I need to be a little bit nicer about all this. Those 15 men that were left in charge are the ones responsible for her being sick. I don’t believe she is dead though. I saw one of them slipping a little poison in her hot cocoa the other day. I’m sure that she will be fine. We just need to expose those who are trying to poison her.
IT54 – Those 15 men killed her AB and when a person is dead they are dead. You can’t bring them back to life. Something else has to happen to bring a person back to life. Only God can do that. We can’t.
And so the discussion continued for months along the same lines of reasoning. Some thought the queen was dead while others thought she was alive and danced a lively jig – even though nobody ever really saw her dance alone. She always had somebody holding on to her to keep her propped up as they waltz across the floor. It was a little hard doing all the movement and moving the feet of the queen, but they all managed. Everyone had a turn at dancing if they wished.
Time passed and one day a cry was heard. “The King, at long last, The King is approaching from the North”. Let us prepare for we will present the beautiful queen to her husband.
The king arrives and enters the grand hall. All bow in humble reverence and bask in his glorious presence. The king walks over to the throne and there sitting before him on the right side of the throne in the seat for the queen is a shrunken and shriveled corpse.
King: What has happened he demanded! I was off in a far country and heard that something was wrong in my kingdom. I came after a long time to find my wife dead.
Tom: but oh gracious king – she is not dead but still has all the gifts you left her. Did you not send forth prophets to tell us that she could not die?
King: I said nothing of the sort. My prophets testified this very thing if the care takers were not careful. Obviously they have not been careful in taking care of the kingdom. It is obvious to me there has been a conspiracy and an enemy has killed the queen in order to subvert the kingdom. Who did such a thing?
MC: I’m sure if you just give her a chance she will rise from the throne and show that she is alive.
King: Council me not MC – are you insane? – look at her – She is dead. Take her and bury her, there is nothing left to do or say.
Over near the door of the court the prince of the realm steps forward and whispers something in his ear which nobody heard. The king pauses for a moment and walks with the prince to the door of the grand hall.
King: All those who can see that the queen is dead please follow me and my prince to another room. Those who believe the queen is still alive stay here.
King and prince and those who want to follow them leave the great hall while those who believed the queen was alive stayed in the great and glorious hall…
I got a kick out of your parable. I think you’re off your rocker, but I’ll play along, though I have a feeling I’m going to regret it. Just out of curiosity who or what is the Queen/mother suppose to represent? Salvation? The living water of the gospel of Christ? The priesthood? The Tree of life/love of God? I’m not really sure. I’m assuming the king is suppose to be Christ and the 15 men the brethren, but beyond that you got me.
Also what do the few people standing in the corner discussing the problems hope to accomplish? I mean that in all sincerity.
It’s seams pretty easy to sit back and bash the brethren from Brigham Young down to today. As human beings they of course all have their flaws. There are more issues surrounding Joseph Smith than anything surrounding Brigham Young or any apostle since. I don’t recall President Monson secretly marrying teenage girls and other men’s wives, behind his wife’s back, in clear violation of every commandment on chastity and marriage contained in our current scriptures. You can search any antimormon site and find all sorts of crazy things surrounding Joseph Smith. Failed prophecies, being duped by the kinderhook plates, contradictions in the first vision accounts, changing the wording of revelations from the Book of Commandments in the 1835 D&C, to name some of the big ones. Also the gifts of the spirit appear to have been weakening in Nauvoo as well.
Before you jump all over me and call me apostate or something, let me explain my position. I’m not suggesting that Joseph Smith was a fraud, not at all. Nor am a declaring that he was a fallen prophet (though it’s certainly a possibility). My point is that there are tons of legit issues surrounding him, way more than our current leaders. On the flip side the gifts of the spirit where obviously with him (and the other early elders of the church) to a greater degree than we have today, at least prior to the Nauvoo era. I don’t have the answers to the issues surrounding Joseph Smith and those surrounding the trajectory of the church since his day. I know the gospel he restored is true. I know the scriptures he brought forth are true. There is a lot that doesn’t make sense to me. Everything surrounding the church both from it’s early days to now is varying shades of gray. Nothing is black and white.
The Ephramite LDS are my people and even though I don’t know exactly what is broken in the church, nor do I expect to be able to fix it, I’m sticking with the church and it’s members. There are no better options out there. When the one mighty and strong comes and when the sealed portion of the plates and records of the lost 10 tribes come forth I trust we’ll have the answers. Until then there’s no point in panicking and loosing ones head. Everything is going work out and happen according to God’s purposes. If we keep the commandments and strive to follow Christ and serve our fellow man with all of our hearts we have nothing to fear.
Witty parable, iterry54. But you still didn’t answer the question.
For what it’s worth and for anyone interested it seems that Denver Snuffer is conceding that seeing Christ while a mortal is not required for exaltation. His blog post from April 29th explains two forms of “ascent” to heaven – one way being having the second comforter (1st ascent) and the other way being having temple ordinances done and ascending after death. I think I’m reading his post right and if I’m not then correct me if I’m wrong. If I’m reading this right then I would ask, in all sincerity, is he now a false prophet for apparently changing his teachings on this important subject?
“I preach, teach, exhort and expound to encourage every soul to rise up in this life and make the first ascension to God while in the flesh. Some have done so. Others will. Perhaps a great many will. I hope so. But if there are believers who cannot or will not do so in this life, the temple is the means God will provide to allow the “least of the Saints” to likewise obtain a hope in Christ by an authorized covenant which will bind on earth and in heaven. Then they become likewise heirs of salvation and part of the great congregation to whom the Lord will proclaim: “Well done!” They will have a legitimate and authorized means for laying ahold of the promise of eternal life and continuing the long path of ascent to the Throne of God to dwell with Him and Christ.”
I’m glad you got a kick out the parable. It is actually a simile however. It is just a little rough draft that I jotted down for fun. Everything in this simile is found in the scriptures and is a prophecy of the last days. And that is what I wanted you to see in this fun little story. I thought it would be fun to put in some of the dialogue that has been going on between us and others in this blog. I hope it made it a little bit fun and a little departure from the ho-hum dialogue that goes on between us and others.
So what does it all mean? Let’s start at the beginning and define the metaphors. The Lord’s language is metaphorical and unless you understand the metaphors the great truths are lost. Let’s start with the Queen/women. When the Lord uses the term women as a metaphor is always means the Church. So when you see her used you can be assured that it means the Church. Christ is the bridegroom and the woman is the bride. Both of them together create righteous offspring who are the members of the Church. So that is the first metaphor.
The second thing you need to realize is that when the Church arrived in this valley the Lord dropped us off here and told us/women/Church to be faithful until He returns. This is what is meant by the King or Christ going off and leaving the women alone. Up until we got here there was revelation in the Church. Brigham Young received that last revelation given to the Church in 1847. The prophecy of this is found in Hosea 2:16–18. In this scripture the Lord leads her (the Church) to the wilderness and speak to her heart. Speaking to her heart means she receives revelation. The only revelation she received we now know was from Joseph Smith who received revelation. She was led here to a desolate valley which was the beginning of the anxiety. Anxiety for what? Anxiety of the Saints for the second coming of the Lord to receive His bride or the Church. That is the marriage ceremony which I’ll discuss later.
Where is this found in scripture? Look at Hosea 2:16–18
16. Therefore, behold I will seduce her, and I will lead her to the wilderness and I will speak to her heart.
17. And I will give to her her vineyards from there, and the desolate valley for a beginning of anxiety; and 18. And it shall be on that day, declares the Lord, you will call [me] “my husband” and you will call me, “my master” no longer.
Chapter 3 says that many days shall the children of Israel sit without a king nor officer and ephod and teraphim. What does that mean? It means when we were led here to this valley we were dropped off and revelation was removed. That is the meaning of no ephod and teraphim. These were devises used anciently for receiving revelation. If you look at the D&C you see that revelation was cutoff to the Church. The Lord has not spoken to the Church since 1847. There isn’t any revelation in the D&C beyond 1847 where the Lord spoke to the Church. There are those who claim revelation and we have one dream from Joseph F. Smith and a phony revelation to Kimball, but you can see that there isn’t any revelation. The idea that revelation continued in the Church is a myth. This is prophesied in chapter 3 of Hosea and D&C 101:45–63 the parable of the Nobleman which I posted before on this site.
4. For many days the Children of Israel shall sit, with no king nor officer and no sacrifice nor pillar, and no ephod and teraphim.
5. Afterward the Children of Israel shall return and they shall seek the Lord their God and David their king, and they shall tremble for the Lord and for His righteousness in the end of days.
Notice in verse 5 they will seek their Lord and their God (Jesus Christ) and David their king. Who is David their King. That is another matter but to be very short in writing this is John the Beloved who is a prince of the Tribe of Judah and second in line under Christ as heir to the throne. Joseph Smith spoke of him and said in the last days old king David would be removed from the throne and another person by that name will be put on the throne. This is John – But that is another complicated story.
The next part of course you got is the 15 men who were charged with making sure everything was okay in the Church. These of course are the 12 apostles and the 1st presidency. Well, they didn’t keep the Church pure and it slipped into apostasy. I’ve quoted a number of scriptures before but I’ll do a few more so that you see what I mean. The next part comes from Isaiah 1:2–6. This is talking about Ephraim in the last days. Isaiah according to Nephi is fulfilled in the last days (2 Nephi 25:7–8). Isaiah saw a vision of Ephraim or the Church. And this is what he said about us:
2. Hear, O heavens! Give heed, O earth! The Lord has spoken: I have reared sons, brought them up, but they have revolted against me.
3. The ox knows its owner, the ass its master’s stall, but Israel does not know; my people are insensitive.
4. Alas, a nation astray, a people weighed down by sin, the offspring of wrongdoers, perverse children: they have forsaken the Lord, they have spurned the Holy One of Israel, they have lapsed into apostasy.
5. Why be smitten further by adding to your waywardness? The whole head is sick, the whole heart diseased.
6. From the soles of the feet even to the head there is nothing sound, only wounds and bruises and festering sores that have not been pressed out or bound up, nor soothed with ointment.
Isn’t it interesting that Isaiah used the term ox in verse 3. Ephraim is called an ox in the blessing of Moses. This is a rhetorical link to us. You might also recall that the ox is used in the temple. The work of the dead was placed on the backs of the ox or Ephraim. Verse 4 says we have lapsed into apostasy. Verse 5 the whole head is sick and the whole heart diseased. The head of course are the leaders of the Church. The heart is the very life of the Church. It has lapsed into apostasy. The wounds and bruises are the signs of apostasy that are so prevalent in the Church today. Some of them you recognize as well as others. AB has done a pretty good job of documenting a number of them on this site.
So then what is dancing with the dead corpse? That should be easy now. That means taking part in the Church. When we go along with what is happening in the Church and accept callings we are dancing with a dead corpse which is the Church. There are those in the Church who also white wash the apostasy. We have to be careful about doing that. This is prophesied in Ezekiel chapter 13
The Lord specifically here talks about the 15 downtown. He also says there are those who cover the wall with whitewash. What does that mean. It means when doctrines are changed such as abortion, blacks and the priesthood, images of Christ then your stake president comes along and puts a fresh coat of white paint over the apostasy and makes it looks as if everything is okay. I’ve quoted Ezekiel 13 before. The rain and hailstones will be the destruction of the Church. I did not go into this in the simile however. Perhaps I should go into what happens when the Lord arrives. But first read this.
1. The word of the Lord came to me.
2. Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel who are prophesying from their own hearts. Say to them, Hear the word of the Lord!
3. This is what the sovereign Lord says. Woe to the foolish prophets who follow after their own spirit and who have seen nothing.
4. Your prophets, O Israel, are like jackals among ruins.
5. You have not gone up to the breaches to repair the wall for the house of Israel so that it will stand firm in the battle on the day of the Lord.
6. They saw false visions and their divinations are a lie. The say, This is what the Lord says, when the Lord has not sent them. Yet they expect him to fulfill their word.
10. Because they lead my people astray saying, All is well when all is not well, and because one builds a flimsy wall and others cover it with whitewash,
11. Therefore, tell those who cover it with whitewash that it is going to fall. Rain will come in torrents and I will send hailstones falling down and violent wind will burst forth.
12. When the wall collapses, will the people not ask you, Where is the whitewash with which you covered it?
The next thing is the coming of the Lord and this is found in Mathew 25:1-13 the parable of the 10 virgins. The cry is the coming of the Lord. But what is it? Some think this is going to really glorious. Well, I have news for you – it is not for those who are dancing with the corpse. Let me quote D&C 112:24–26
24. Behold, vengeance cometh speedily upon the inhabitants of the earth, a day or wrath, a day of burning, a day of desolation, of weeping, of mourning, and of lamentation; and as a whirlwind it shall come upon all the face of the earth, saith the Lord.
25. And upon my house shall it begin, and from my house shall it go forth, saith the Lord.
26.First among those among you, saith the Lord, who have professed to know my name and have not known me, and have blasphemed against me in the midst of my house, saith the Lord.
So when the cry is heard MC this is the beginning of the vengeance. And where does it begin? It begins on the Lords house or Ephraim. It comes against those who professed to know His name and have not known Him. Who is that He is talking about. Go back to Ezekiel 13 and you’ll find it. It is the false prophets.
Isaiah 66:6. Hark, a tumult from the city, a noise from the temple! It is the voice of the Lord paying his enemies what is due them.
Who then are His enemies? It is defined in D&C 112 as explained above. So the Lord is going to kill his enemies. He will be doing that at his temple. Which temple? It should be clear by now since Isaiah is about the last days. It’s the Salt Lake temple.
The final part is the leaving of the king with the prince. He says that those who believe the Church is still alive must stay behind whereas those who see the problems are to follow Him and His prince. This is found in a number of places in the scriptures. The best one is Revelation 12:1–6. This is the exodus to Adam-ondi-ahman that we’ve always heard about in the Church but know nothing about it. The Church is reorganized on the Exodus and the woman is now beautiful. Nothing like the description of the apostasy in Isaiah verse 1. I can show you other scriptures about what the woman looks like when she is in apostasy. Basically the Lord calls her an adulterer .
1. And there appeared a great sign in heaven, in the likeness of things on the earth; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars.
2. And the woman being with child, cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
3. And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up unto God and his throne.
The woman here is the Church which is not quite beautiful (not in apostasy). The man child is not Christ however in verse 3. It is somebody else because Christ is the broom. This is David the King as mentioned before.
Isaiah 22:25 says that the nail that was fastened in a sure place shall be removed. The entire context is quite interesting but to be brief right now the Church or more specifically the president of the Church is the nail in the sure place. It has become loose however because he isn’t keeping the commandments as I’ve mentioned many times. That nail will be dislodged and fall and the burden or the members who are hanging on him for direction etc will fall and be cut off. Or in other words being cut off from the Lord is being sent to hell and eventually the Telestial kingdom. This is mentioned in the All is Well in Zion scripture in the BOM.
Isaiah 22:25. In that day, says the Lord of Hosts, the nail that was fastened in a sure place shall be removed. It shall be dislodged and fall, and the burden hanging on it cut off. The Lord has spoken it.
Right now it’s a very dangerous thing to be a member of the Church because it is in apostasy. If you sustain these leaders and dance with the dead Church then you are sustaining their evil practices. You therefore cannot be righteous. That should be clear by now.
There is much more of course that could be said about this. All of this is outlined in the scriptures. The best commentary that explains the metaphors is by Robert Smith. I’ve mentioned him before but that’s the best.
I tried to be brief MC but it turned into a book. Sorry about that. I now think you can understand the simile fairly well now. It’s all found in scripture and I could quote a bunch more that support and expands all of this further. This I hope will suffice for now.
No I do not believe Denver S. has the gift of healing, revelation, that he is the one mighty and strong, the Lord’s servant, has seen God or Christ or anything of the sort. Nobody at present in this Church has the gifts because the priesthood has been taken as I explained.
Take a look at the explanation of the parable to MC. That will give you a number of scriptures that say exactly the opposite of what you claim. That the Church is in apostasy. D&C 112:24–26 should explain this clearly to you and the Lord is displeased. Isaiah 1 says the same thing as well as Ezekiel 13 and D&C 101;45-63. The scriptures are all very consistent and say the same thing. The Church in the last days goes into apostasy and is destroyed. The Lord saves out a righteous remnant as He always does who recognize that apostasy and does not support it. That is the danger of being a member right now. If you support it then you are in danger of singing with the 12 All is Well in Zion and you are led carefully down to hell. Those aren’t my words – that’s the Lord’s. Why is this so hard to accept? IT54
I appreciate you taking the time to put that parable/simile together and for taking the time to break down its interpretation. Though we may not fully agree on the severity of the current state of the church, or what the best approach is to dealing with the issues at hand, I appreciate your viewpoint and scriptural interpretations. Your parable was a clever way to express your perspective in a different light and shake things up. Well done.
I went through all of the scriptures and interpretations you shared. I think you make some valid points, perhaps things in the church are worse than I think. The ancient prophecies are certainly pretty ominous. I do think it’s hard to say though what the correct interpretations are to all those passages. Perhaps you have it all figured out correctly, and perhaps not.
For example I couldn’t really tell what the “nail in a sure place” was really suppose to represent. You say the church and more specifically the president of the church, but I really couldn’t tell. I will study and ponder on what you shared some more. I will look into reading some of Robert Smith’s commentaries as well.
One quick thought. I couldn’t see any evidence from any of those scriptures that there is anything wrong with continuing to stay with the church and remain active. Even if the church is 100% apostate from the brethren all the way down to the nursery (which I still really doubt) I see no indication that continuing to love and serve and do all one can for one’s brethren in the church will have any negative consequences, let alone be condemned by the Lord. It would seem that one can serve and love while being aware that all is not well that something big will have to be happen to cleanse the Lord’s house and fix things. I see no reason why one can’t serve and love while waiting for the invitation to go up to Zion in Missouri. I do believe that this invitation will not come through the brethren, but perhaps I’m wrong. It’s really hard to say how it will all play out. What do you think? Why are you so sure that continuing to love and serve in the church is such a bad thing? Like I said before Mormon did the same thing, as did many other righteous people in similar situations in the scriptures.
Also if you’d like we could exchange email addresses or something and really dig into the topic we’ve been discussing. Not in a spirit of contention, but in the spirit of brotherhood and trying to mutually learn from each other. I have been enjoying our ongoing discussion.
I understand your concern exactly. One thing that has always been an obstacle is understanding the scriptures. They are very difficult to understand and in fact impossible to understand unless you either have the spirit of prophecy to be able to interpret them, find a commentary where someone who has had the spirit of the prophecy and can interpret them for you, or somehow are taught the language of the Lord which is metaphorical. Once you understand the scriptures and the language of the Lord, however; then you’ll find that the Lord says the same thing over and over again through His different prophets. A few details are added here and there but they all are consistent and say the same thing. At least the prophecies about the last days all say the same thing so once they are understood you can read any of the prophets and understand where that particular event fits into the entire picture. If you have the incorrect interpretation then there will be contradictions. Those contradictions will pile up as you head down the wrong road of interpretation. I’ve found that so much in the CES writings in particular.
When began my search I was aware that the Lord told me a bunch of times (in fact 10 times) to study Isaiah. Now there was a daunting task because there wasn’t any verse that I could understand. I thought I understood a few isolated ones, but since then I now know I was completely wrong. I had one requirement however. When I found a commentary or could understand the language enough to interpret one scripture which is Isaiah 11:15–16 I would know I was on the right track:
15. The Lord will dry up the tongue of the Egyptian Sea by his mighty wind; he will extend his hand over the River and smite it into seven streams, to provide a way on foot.
16. And there shall be a pathway out of Assyria for the remnant of his people who shall be left.
I thought that if I understood this scripture in its entirety which means understanding all the metaphors and everything. Then I would know I was on target. Well, I understand it now completely. This one is highly metaphorical and completely off the subject and so I won’t discuss it. I Just wanted you to have a glimpse of my thought processes in regard to scripture.
I was debating whether I should use the nail in the sure place scripture because this entire chapter takes some considerable commentary to lay it all out for you. I guess what I wanted you to see in that scripture and we can talk about the entire thing later is that the vessels that are hanging on that nail will be cut off when that nail is removed. This is a metaphor for the present Church and particularly the president. The great admonition today is “Follow the Prophet”. What the Lord says is quite different. He calls them false prophets as I pointed out in Ezekiel 13. When the burden is cutoff all who are hanging on that nail will be removed. Very scary stuff!
There are lots of scriptures about all of this and I only gave you a small snippet. Let me give you a few more to think about. You said that you didn’t see anywhere in those scriptures that it says we should not participate. And that is true I didn’t give any. Here is a question that you might want to answer for yourself. Why do you participate in the first place? One of the reasons is that the Church tells you that is what the Lord did. He came here and His work was to be a sort of male mother Teresa right? ? I can tell you this is false doctrine and the Lord Jesus Christ came here for one purpose only. And that was to perform the atonement and to prove without a doubt that He was God the Son. He never did any works other than that.
We are now required by the Church to take in refugees. Our young beautiful women are supposed to serve missions in some of the most rot-gut places in the world. We must go to the temple every waking hour, do our genealogy, and callings. Why? Because these are works and it shows faith and we are saved by all the wonderful works we do right? Isn’t that what the Church is telling you and why you want to participate?
Here is what the Lord says about your works.
11. For what purpose are your abundant sacrifices to me? Says the Lord. I have had my fill of offerings of rams and fat of fatted beasts; the blood of bulls and sheep and he-goats I do not want.
This verse is couched in Mosaic law terms. Of course we do not sacrifice rams, bulls, sheep and goats today. But they are symbolic of the sacrifices we perform. One of the things the Church has tried to cultivate in the last few years is an image of a large, benevolent Church. The individual members make great sacrifices to the Church. In fact, we give more time, effort, money and even their sons and daughters to the Church than people of any other major organization. It is clear that we and the corporate Church are making abundant sacrifices. But the Lord asks what good are these sacrifices.
12. When you come to see me, who requires you to trample my courts so?
The Lord continues in the same tone. But here He is using a term for walking which we usually use to refer to a herd of animals who are out of control. Trample means to stomp and walk heavily. Again He seems to be talking of the way we comport ourselves in the buildings dedicated to His worship. In recent years we have become very irreverent in our buildings.
13. Bring no more worthless offerings; they are as a loathsome incense to me. As for convening meetings at the New Month and on the Sabbath, wickedness with the solemn gathering I cannot approve.
14. Your monthly and regular meetings my soul detests. They have become a burden on me; I am weary of putting up with them.
He spoke of the offerings above and here He calls them worthless. He describes them as loathsome incense. Instead of smelling sweet, they are a stench to Him. In verse 13 the meetings at the new month and on the Sabbath are not appropriate or good meetings and He does not approve of them. He follows in verse 14 saying almost the same thing. The monthly meeting is obviously the Fast and Testimony meeting, or meeting at the new month, and the regular meetings are the other Sunday meetings. His words are very strong. The Lord says His soul detests the meetings. In addition, they have become a burden and He is weary of putting up with them.
15. When you spread forth your hands, I will conceal my eyes from you; though you pray at length, I will not hear—your hands are filled with blood.
He says only two things here. He will not see us nor hear our prayers no matter how long we pray and our hands are filled with blood.
Mc you’ll have to figure out what the Lord means by we have blood on our hands. There are several possibilities but the one that stands out the most is abortion. Here in Utah 3,000 abortions are performed every single year. We put up with them and even are beloved governor just signed legislation that a baby is now to be sedated before the murder. You said you didn’t know how far we have slipped? Well, here the Lord calls us murderers.
16. Wash yourselves clean: remove your wicked deeds from before my eyes; cease to do evil.
How do you do that if you continue dancing with the dead corpse? How can you sustain evil men that promote this wickedness? That is why I’ve given up on them and can’t go anymore, because to do so would mean giving approval.
But what are we to do? Well, we can talk about that another time. If you’d love to discuss over email I would be happy to send you Robert Smith’s commentary on Isaiah. He has written many commentaries on the old and New Testament, BoM, and D&C. So there is quite a bit. I have them all on the computer.
One book called Last Days Unsealed was selling on Amazon for $999.00 a while back. The price has since dropped to a reasonable level now. All of his books are out of print however. If you’d like a copy send me a note at email@example.com.
To MC and iIterry 54. I’ve enjoyed your conversation, iterry54 brings up some interesting points to consider and think about. However, some thoughts for MC. As I read the blogs and comments, it seems to me that the Lord is telling some people to stay in the Church, but others that it’s ok for them to leave. I’m one that He told to stay.
So, I stay, but I’m not as active with everything as before, and the Lord is ok with that. I wondered why, He told me to stay, but recently I was reading (in either Nephi or Jacob, I don’t remember and am not looking at the BofM right now) but whoever was writing talked about living the Law of Moses. He said that they knew salvation did not come from living the Law and then he actually said “the Law is dead unto us”, but they lived because it was required of them and therefore it was counted as righteousness for them.
I felt that this applied to me. I’ve asked and the Lord told me to stay. Therefore it is counted as righteousness for me. I think each person needs to find out what the Lord requires of them.
I wish you the best in your searching.
Ellee, it is very comfortable to stay in the Church. The provide quite a bit of social interaction of course. That isn’t the problem as I pointed out to MC. It’s the sustaining of the wickedness that is in the Church. That’s the problem. The Church has changed dramatically over the years. It is hard to tell what is good doctrine and what isn’t. For the most part what is taught in the Church now is not good doctrine. In fact, the doctrines that are being taught according to Ezekiel are not coming from the Lord at all but from Lucifer. That’s the problem. So while you want to stay active you have to be careful as to what you are sustaining.
For example, by sustaining the brethren you are sustaining abortion in the Church. You can have an abortion in this Church (as long as you ask permission) in the cases of rape, incest, and life and health of the mother. Those are all permissible and no action will be taken against you. If you don’t ask permission well then that’s sin. I discussed this with someone in the Church about this very thing not too long ago.
Isaiah on the other hand tells us we as a Church have blood on our hands Isaiah 1:15. There are 3,000 abortions in Utah every year. How many of them come from LDS homes – I don’t know. But I know that a friend of mine granddaughter got pregnant out of wedlock and was threatened by her bishop to have an abortion or face a Church court. She didn’t and that apostate bishop did not follow up and come through on his threat thank heaven. So this is a big problem, and one that won’t be discussed over the pulpit. It used to be back 40years ago – then it was called murder by the leaders.
So my point is that you should not sit back passively accepting what these jackals dish out to you and sustain it. The members are going to be held responsible for their vote. Many think that it will be on the head of the leaders and not the members and the Lord requires us to sustain them. That is not true – we all have a right to judge our leaders because the Lord gave us that right. It is called common consent and was given so that there wouldn’t be any corruption in the Church. They have removed that right from us through apostasy. It is the reason I don’t attend because I will vote against them if a vote is held. Voting against them only brings down their wrath and you will be kicked out if you do that. Many who see the apostasy have been kicked out for not sustaining this apostates down town.
Conditions were different at the time of Nephi. They lived the law of Moses but it was dead to them because the accepted Christ. The law was to lead them to Christ as it says in the NT. It wasn’t revealed to the Jews and even the House of Israel from the time of Moses to Nephi-Lehi although the prophets knew about Christ. It was only taught to the Nephites who lived in South America from 600bc to 400ad. So there was differences. The fact that they lived the law of Moses isn’t the same for us. We just need to be wise about what we do and sustain.
Remember in Isaiah chapter 1 the Lord says He hates our meetings. He hates all the sacrifices we make in the Church meaning all of the temple work, jobs we hold, serving we do in the Church. He would rather that we do what we can to be righteous by keeping His commandments and not sustain wickedness.
Maybe I ought to list some of the things the Lord condemns us for in the scriptures.
1. Abortion (we have blood on our hands)
2. Idolatry – the images and statues of Christ is condemned in the scriptures. In my chapel the average distance between an idol of Christ is about 5 feet down the halls of the Church. I can’t even stand walking the halls anymore – makes me itch. I feel like a vampire and the halls are filled with garlic.
3. Keeping the Sabbath day holy
4. Injustice, The Lord condemns both the ecclesiastical leaders and the governmental leaders because of injustice to the poor in our community.
5. acceptance of homosexuality in the Church.
These are all mentioned in Isaiah. There are others but that out to be good enough for now. Something to think about I suppose. I should mention that AB has done a great job of documenting the wickedness of the brethren.
I don’t see anything different or damningly contradictory with Denver’s expounding. To condemn him as changing his positions on things as he clarifies and extends explanations is to cut oneself off from proper expounding…we are our own accusers with such overbearing standards. Also, if he has changed positions, he has tried to be explicit about such, providing reasons why he has changed and how he has been learning more as he has gone along. Concerning polygamy, Denver has always said he wasn’t prepared in the past to share all his opinions on the subject.
As a lawyer, and maybe this is his Achilles heel or a talent of his, he often concedes many points that the other side argues, and focuses on one particular point he wants to cover and ignoring how the other side’s view makes him look. Later, he takes up the other points and shares his counter-points. This is done in trials all the time to gain ground without rocking the boat on other areas that are too sensitive or likely to cause debate and argument, or to avoid bad timing. Remember, the purpose of trials is to bring contending parties to reconciliation, or to have a just judgment pronounced when reconciliation is impossible. Despite the historical evidence otherwise, not all lawyers are evil. Denver is not an anti-Mormon. When he concedes points to their camp in order to discuss an issue, all hell raises up to point the finger and claim, “He MUST be an anti-Mormon, too! He doesn’t spit out hatred and contempt for our enemies, so he MUST be one of them!!” The same thing happens when he concedes points to the polygamists, the Re-organites, the Brethrenites, or whomever. “Who’s on the Lord’s side, Who?”
I’m confused at the accusation that he is a false prophet when he has repeatedly refused the title of prophet to begin with, and said that he is working in the capacity of a teacher and a servant, the same as the rest of us. Maybe, as a true servant, he will be called a true prophet someday, but for now, he refuses the title until he actually accomplishes something noteworthy. Such expounding and learning as you go is the hallmark of a teacher, provided they qualify themselves as they go along, and Denver has done so as far as I can tell. John the Baptist did as much, saying there was a further baptism of enlightenment and fire that he needed.
To suggest Denver is the one mighty and strong is to ignore Denver’s own persuasive arguments that the one mighty and strong could be Christ Himself, and not some mortal. How could he be claiming that for himself? He has only said he is the lowliest of members, and now an excommunicated one at that, simply for expounding as all members are commanded to do. It seems that Denver, and all of us, are doomed to failure in such a hypocritical double-standard mentality, yet General Authorities are immune to similar censure, and somehow above the fray of such impossible requirements for teaching. I hate seeing a man brought up on charges for erring in doctrine, Joseph Smith said. It sounds too much like the Methodists. Haven’t we become sectarians in these things? Haven’t we “sectioned” ourselves off from others instead of being inclusive like the Savior teaches? Instead the churches seem to only include the wolves among them now.
John the Baptist did no miracles. Denver teaches from the scriptures in 4 Nephi that the gifts of the Spirit are a “second stage” event after learning to deal justly with one another and stopping contention. Is it any wonder we are not seeing as many of the gifts as we think we should? We are still arguing. That being said, I have seen miracles in the fellowships. There is fruit. Signs follow only those who believe.
Concerning the charge about no scriptural support for the idea for seven women to sustain others for priesthood use in the community at large, Denver’s comments come as a new revelation, suggested as non-binding wisdom, given outside the jurisdiction of any church (which is not subject to the common consent of anyone in any church, but is only subject to the common consent of those acting outside of church atmospheres). Anyone can receive such revelation, and the only scriptural support it would need is that it qualifies according to the character of God to prove it came from Him and not some evil source. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or praiseworthy, or of good report, we seek after these things. Judge not, that ye be not judged. But remembering, that just because anyone can receive such revelations, doesn’t mean many or any will, it’s only according to the will of God. And, besides the few procedural clarifications we’ve accepted through Denver, we are focusing on the scriptures that have been given first to remember and preserve the Restoration before it dies out.
If Denver is to be charged with anything, it is that he has had the courage to point out that the scriptures REALLY teach about re-baptism, and that they REALLY condemn LDS Church practices prophetically. His cry, and his appeal to converts to the true doctrine of Christ, is that we ought to obey God and what He says in scripture rather than men. If Denver changes his interpretations in an effort to get at what the original author meant by the Holy Ghost, what of it? The example he sets is that we are all supposed to do the same until we arrive at the truth for ourselves. There are some things Denver has never changed on, and that should tell us something. God bless him for escaping the trappings of being called a prophet. I suppose, when we all rise up to become prophets and prophetesses ourselves, then Denver will finally allow himself to qualify to be called one.
To steal a phrase from Denver, My God, people! As Joseph Smith said, I love a man that swears up a storm, better than the smooth talking hypocrite. What a storm has been sworn up! Like with John the Baptist, Christ has surely sent a sword between father and mother and son and daughter and husband and wife. Shall we turn back from following our Lord because of it? My God, people! Please reconsider and listen to the words of your Creator through an authorized servant. Why will ye die? Even Nephi had to have his heart softened concerning his “visionary” father. Do not harden your hearts. What more could the Lord do for His vineyard? Now is the day to be re-baptized in support of these truths, come what may.
Though Denver has tried very hard to not publicly declare himself to be a prophet he has on fact said several times that is in fact just that. In his 10th lecture he refers to himself as the Lord’s authorized servant and that all who reject his message will be damned. Sounds like he’s saying he’s a prophet to me.
Someone asked him on his blog if he considered himself to be a prophet. His answer (I’m paraphrasing), “a prophet is someone who has the spirit of prophecy and I have the spirit of prophecy.”
As far as your comparison of Denver to John the Baptist (who is also refered to as Elias), Joseph Smith clearly taught that those who come in the spirit of Elias preparing the way for someone else will never overstep their bounds. I don’t have the reference in front of me but can dig it up if you’d like. It’s found on TPJS I believe. If Denver is merely a teacher preparing the way for someone, then he has overstepped his bounds on my opinion. Rather than present a simple message from the Lord or even offer rebaptism he tries to explain almost every doctrinal issue, and in so doing frequently goes back and forth and even contradicts himself.
Let me ask you this, if the lectures are truly the words of Christ how come Denver has backpeddled off of some of the things he taught in them? In the 1st lecture he boldly declared that Joseph and Fanny Alger were married. He didn’t say sealed as part of the law of adoption, he called it a marriage. Obviously he’s now teaching something different.
Denver claims to be trying to build up Zion in a passive way, different from the strong armed tactics of previous attempts. However this is unscriptural as the Lord declared in the D&C that Zion must be redeemed with power. Plus it’s worth noting that we mere mortals aren’t just given a chance to redeem Zion ourselves, it can only come through a commandment of the Lord and through the hand of the one mighty and strong, who is not Christ himself, but rather a prophet.
It would be wonderful if Denver was a true messenger of the Lord and all we have to do is follow his teachings, be rebaptized, etc, but it doesn’t work that way. Denver doesn’t have the authority to offer rebaptism let alone redeem Zion. It he does he wouldn’t do some of the things he does like advocating ordaining a man to the priesthood without ordaining then to a specific office, which is 100% against the D&C and everything Joseph Smith and the early Elder’s of the church did.
Like I said in previous comments Denver’s claims are very convincing and he teaches a lot of truth. For those of us who have awakened to the knowledge that all is not well in Zion, Denver looks like the answer to our prayers. The problem is there are so many things that he teaches and does that just don’t add up when closely examined. You have to decide for yourself if you can accept Denver as a John the Baptist type messenger in spite of the issues that surround him.
I don’t blaim anyone for following Denver, but I know for myself that he can’t be a true prophet, and based on his claims he’s a prophet whether he refers to himself as such or not. If he can’t be a true prophet then the only alternative is that he’s a false one. No mattet how much any of us want him to be a true prophet, or teacher, or whatever, that doesn’t make it so. We have the obligation to closely examine his fruits and unfortunately his fruits just don’t add up.
Just look at some of things I pointed out in previous comments. They can’t be explained. Maybe one or two could be explained with a lengthy compex answer but as a whole they can’t be. There are many more issues I could bring up , but some are more complex and hard to break down in a blog comment. Please search these things out for yourself. Carefully compare everyone of Denver’s teachings and claims to the scriptures. It’s the only way to see what Denver really is.
I think you are missing the forest for the trees.
I invite you to become as a little child in this matter, and live a few months of your life with these questions foremost:
1. Does the Lord want / require you to be re-baptized at this time in your life?
2. If yes, who might be acceptable in God’s eyes to accomplish that baptism?
These questions have nothing to do with following Denver or not following him. They have everything to do with coming closer to Christ and seeking to know his will in the matter.
At this point, I’m not convinced that you have experimented upon the word. You have dissected and deconstructed various aspects of the word that originated with Denver, but have you lived any of those words? Can you say from experience that being re-baptized according to his invitation has born good fruit in your life, or evil fruit? I will hazard the guess that you can’t do that.
It is socially and emotionally expensive to obtain knowledge. It costs something precious to find out if something is true or not. Often it costs social comfort, reputation, and the risk of looking like a fool in front of those we most care about and want to remain close with. There is a real risk of being cast out of existing organizations and relationships. Obtaining knowledge costs our willingness to submit, to act, experiment, to go against the grain, to lose ourselves, to sacrifice ourselves in pursuit of oneness with God.
I was extremely skeptical at the outset, found a hundred contradictions and impossibilities in what Denver was saying. But there was something powerful and undeniable at the core of his message that I wanted to isolate and understand. Either the core message was from Christ or it wasn’t, and I wanted to know.
In order to test something honestly, you have to freeze out all of the noise and apparent contradictions for a trail period. You have to put all of your chips on the table, and see how the hand plays out on its own terms, not on your terms.
If and when you are willing to leave your comfort zone as outlined above, you will be in a more legitimate position to make judgments about what Denver has said or not said. Testing his words won’t make you his follower. Testing his words will make you his equal or his superior. You will be able to understand his message on an experiential plane, and not merely on a theoretical one.
To your credit, I think that your reading of this blog is an indication that you are searching with a significant level of intent. I think you have bet some chips and taken a few risks. But in the end you seem to be holding back, and for that reason important points of knowledge might remain beyond your reach.
I agree with you MC. The Lord warned us there would be many false prophets in the last days and Denver certainly fits that description perfectly. I think one the problems the members have is the ones that are sustained downtown as prophets aren’t receiving any revelation,and the people are hungry to hear something from the Lord. So they go after these other false prophets that abound on the fringes of the Church in the last days. In my opinion these phonies they are very easy to detect. If the people would stick to the scriptures as their standard they would not be led astray. All the answers are found in them and they wouldn’t have to run after these charlatans. IT54
Amen IT54, I couldn’t agree more.
Believe it or not I have investigated Denver’s teachings pretty extensively with an open heart and an open mind. Nothing would have made me happier than to receive the witness of the Holy Ghost that he was in fact a true prophet sent by God. I have prayerfully and earnestly read through and studied well over a thousand pages of his writings consisting of at least half of his blog, PTHG, two of his lectures, his lecture on polygamy, and some of his Brigham Young’s telestial kingdom paper, as well as excerpts from all of his lectures. I have also listened to two of his lectures.
I have definitely giving Denver and his claims substantial earnest investigation. Much of what Denver teaches is very impressive. I love the idea of being rebaptized and joining a fellowship, in fact for a time I really, really desired to be apart of the movement. I was more than willing to give up my membership in the church and join the remnant movement. I was prepared to do just that as soon as I received the witness that Denver was what he professed to be.
However regardless of my yearning to be rebaptized I was not under any circumstances going to be rebaptized unless I received the witness that Denver’s claims were true, because unless Denver is a true prophet with authority from God being rebaptized by one of his followers would be offensive to God.
The scriptures are crystal clear that one must have proper priesthood authority to baptize. So your suggestion to be rebaptized and then see what the fruits are is unscriptural and backwards. The witness must come first and then the baptism. That’s the way it’s always been since the dawn of time.
Like I said Denver is a prophet, of that there can be no doubt. If a man claims to have seen Christ and have a message from Him then he is a prophet, end of story. It doesn’t matter if he tries to say he’s only a teacher or even an authorized messenger (which is an unscriptural term). Based on his claims Denver is either a true prophet or a false one, there can be no middle ground. He’s not just like everyone else. He’s very, very different.
So how do I know that he is a false prophet and not a true one? No the Lord hasn’t spoken to me in an audible voice or sent an angel to tell me Denver is a false prophet. The witness I have received comes from Denver’s fruits and the lack of a spiritual witness.
Denver claims that his 10 lecture series was given to him by Christ himself. I read and listened to them with an open heart and an open mind and did not feel the spirit or voice of the Lord in them, not even once.
Many of his teachings and claims are either a little off or flat out false. I’ve documented some of them already. Can a true prophet teach false doctrine, let alone a lot of false doctrine? Will a true prophet contradict himself and the message he claims to have received from Christ not just once or twice, but many times?
Will a true prophet tell you to secretly be rebaptized and then continue going to the LDS church searching for new converts as sort of an undercover missionary? Where is the scriptural support for that? If he was true prophet and the Lord took the priesthood from the church and gave it to him than why tell people to stay in the church? Please show me the scriptures were people were secretly rebaptized and then stayed in the church they previously came from? That’s not the way it works.
In fact everything Denver is doing is unscriptural. If he was a true prophet he wouldn’t try to avoid being referred as one. It’s okay to be humble, but it’s another to twist and distort the meanings of prophet, messenger, servant, and teacher and make them into some hybrid new unscriptural calling. Some things are black and white, like being a true prophet or not.
Please show me the scriptures that prophecy or mention a true prophet that comes along prior to Christ’s second coming, who tries to claim he’s not a prophet, teaches a good amount of false doctrine, regularly contradicts himself, has a sketchy claim to priesthood authority, and tries to establish Zion passively? Those fruits alone testify that he is a false prophet.
I know so much of what Denver teaches and encourages people to do is wonderful. The thought of being rebaptized as a covenant with Christ is awesome. This is why he has gained such a following, that and what IT54 expressed about people being disappointed in the brethren and then turning to someone they believe better demonstrates the fruits of being a prophet.
I totally get it. It all sounds so great. I wish it were true, I really do, but it’s not. I know it’s harder that it’s not true, but that is the reality. Currently there is no prophet sent by the Lord to guide is (besides the brethren.) I know that’s scary and very unsettling, but it’s the truth. Whatever spirit and apparent good fruits that come from being rebaptized through this Denver led movement are false. It is the work of a familiar spirit. The road he is leading his followers down does not lead to Christ. Please, please open your eyes and look at all of the things I’ve pointed out about Denver. Search your heart, how can a true prophet or servant teach false doctrine and contradict himself so much? Please try and answer the issues I’ve raised about Denver and his claims, if only within your own heart. If you want to brush them all aside and blindly follow Denver and the familiar spirit that is with him, that is of course your right. I can’t do it, no matter how much I may want to or how much easier it would be.
One thing that is really odd is the re-baptism thing. When the Aaronic priesthood was restored Joseph was told it would never be taken from the earth again. No promise was made about the Melchizedek priesthood which was removed. So the idea of needing to be re-baptized is a glaring contradiction. All male members who have been ordained to the Aaronic priesthood hold that authority today. That is except for the blacks who cannot hold the priesthood as it says in Abraham 1. Everyone seeing that re-baptism is necessary should immediately label it as false doctrine coming from a false prophet. IT54
Brian I think Denver’s clarification is important about the second comforter because some would argue that you cannot be saved unless you see Christ in the flesh. That’s the whole point of Denvers book The 2nd Comforter is it not? Some are willing to be excommunicated all based upon this one point and get mad that’s it’s not taught regularly in church. For Denver to concede this point I think is huge! On a side note I think it’s interesting that Denver still attends LDS sacrament meetings (He himself says he’s NOT shunned at church) when he’s not able to speak and participate. Not sure I would do that if I believed the church was being led astray. I love you bro but be careful with familiar spirits.
I agree with you that there must be some spiritual basis upon which to act. I guess I would call it a partial witness or a preliminary spiritual nudge, which takes place before pure knowledge is given, before the trial of faith is accomplished, before a firm witness is given. Alma 32:28 outlines it this way:
“Now, we will compare the word unto a seed. Now, if ye give place, that a seed may be planted in your heart, behold, if it be a true seed, or a good seed, if ye do not cast it out by your unbelief, that ye will resist the Spirit of the Lord, behold, it will begin to swell within your breasts; and when you feel these swelling motions, ye will begin to say within yourselves—It must needs be that this is a good seed, or that the word is good, for it beginneth to enlarge my soul; yea, it beginneth to enlighten my understanding, yea, it beginneth to be delicious to me.”
You claim that no such preliminary nudges or feelings have occurred during your study of Denver’s writings, and therefore no further testing is merited. You claim that you provided a place for the seed to be planted in your heart, that you did not cast it out by your unbelief, that you did not resist the Spirit of the Lord; that the seed produced no swelling motions, no enlargement of soul, no enlightenment of understanding, no trace of the word being delicious.
And yet you admit: “Much of what Denver teaches is very impressive. I love the idea of being rebaptized and joining a fellowship… I have …read through and studied well over a thousand pages of his writings …”
I think that this admission of yours intersects with what Alma is talking about. I think that you received an initial impression that the seed might be good. But then you cast it out by your unbelief. You found reasons to stop tending the seed, and you avoided carrying out an experiment of faith. And now you are demanding a witness, and claiming that it would be offensive to God to conduct an immersive experiment in pursuit of a witness.
I think there have been swelling motions in your heart indicating to you that what Denver has written has merit. Why else would you read over a thousand pages of his writings? Why not stop at 1 page, or 5 pages, or 15 pages? Why 1000+ pages? What motivated you to keep reading?
I think you kept reading because there is something provocative, special, insightful, and divine about what Denver has written. I think what happened is that you started the test of faith, but you haven’t finished it. You’ve cast out the seed because of unbelief.
You appear to be demanding a sure witness before you will act. That is not how the gospel works. As Moroni says in Ether 12:6 – “ye receive no witness until after the trial of your faith.”
In this particular matter, you are not child-like. You are not humble. You want everything to make perfect sense and to be “crystal clear” before you will act. This is not how the gospel works. Denver being a weak and simple man, being full of imperfections and contradictions – this doesn’t destroy his core message. His core message is that Christ has issued an imperative that you be re-baptized at this time in your life, and that you need to seek out those who are worthy to do that.
Even if Denver is wrong, being re-baptized by someone who thinks they have authority would not be offensive to God. It would prove to God that you are willing to go out of your way to find Him. It would demonstrate that you are willing to explore all avenues; that you are not casting out a potentially good seed without testing that seed with full purpose of heart. This doesn’t mean that you need to go out and get dunked by every denomination that claims to have authority. But I think it does mean that if something held your attention for 1,000+ pages, and you dropped it cold without finishing the investigation, then you can’t claim to have properly tested that seed. If the seed was worth 1,000+ pages of your time, then it is worth the risk, humiliation, and test of a physical baptism, which would only take an hour or two of your time.
These words of yours seem to be about getting the witness first (I’ve added all caps for emphasis):
>>>>>“I was more than willing to give up my membership in the church and join the remnant movement. I was prepared to do just that AS SOON AS I RECEIVED THE WITNESS that Denver was what he professed to be. … I was not under any circumstances going to be rebaptized unless I received the witness that Denver’s claims were true, because unless Denver is a true prophet with authority from God being rebaptized by one of his followers would be offensive to God. The scriptures are crystal clear that one must have proper priesthood authority to baptize. So your suggestion to be rebaptized and then see what the fruits are is unscriptural and backwards. THE WITNESS MUST COME FIRST AND THEN THE BAPTISM.”<<<<<
Consider how opposed your words are to this counsel from Alma 32:16 – “Blessed is he that believeth in the word of God, and is baptized without stubbornness of heart, yea, without being brought to know the word, or even compelled to know, before they will believe.”
Run the experiment to it’s logical conclusion. Alma 32 is about being baptized before we are 100 percent sure that it is what God wants (verse 16). It's about watering the seed with a literal baptism, as an important step in the investigation, so that the seed can sprout and eventually show what kind of fruit it has to offer.
Also, have you read this scripture-based explanation of prophets? It is in 7 parts, and very insightful:
Perhaps I was a bit careless in my some of my comments including my last one. Let me explain to you why I studied so much of Denver’s teachings.
I woke up to the knowledge of the church’s apostasy in large part because of some ongoing discussions with a friend of mine. My friend would bring up issues regarding the current state of the church and I would try to refute them. Many of the things he brought up were completely new to me. In order to try and refute his claims I had to do a lot of study and research into church history and the current actions of the brethren. This went on for several months. Eventually the light bulb came on for me and I discovered that the church was in apostasy. I prayed in full sincerity of heart to know if this was in fact true. The witness of the spirit in answer to my prayer, confirming that the church was indeed in apostasy, was undeniable. I had never experienced anything like it. I would compare it to how what Lamoni described when he became converted. I shared my newfound discovery with my friend who then revealed to me that he believed that Denver Snuffer was a true messenger sent to warn the saints like Abinidi. He loaned me a copy of PTHG, which I read, as well as everything else I documented.
So why did I read so much? Well initially I was very impressed with Denver’s blog, which I read first. I hoped he was a true prophet and my understanding of the scriptures was very basic (like the typical mormon). Because of this I found his insights and scriptural interpretations to be very impressive. I kept waiting to feel a similar spiritual manifestation to the one I had just recently experienced. It never came and before too long I began seeing things that didn’t make sense or add up when compared to the scriptures. When I would mention these things to my friend he would tell me to just keep reading. He told me about the lectures and that they were the most important message Denver had to offer, because they were given to him by Christ. So I read the first two and was unimpressed. I shared this with my friend. He told me to listen to them instead. I didn’t do that at this time, but did several months later and felt the same thing, nothing.
So again the question why would I keep investigating? Is it because I felt something? I suppose I did feel something, but I now know that it wasn’t from God. Whatever I may have felt was not the main reason why I kept at it even when I knew something was off. I kept at it and even revisited it a couple of times because I desperately needed something to hold on to. I wanted so very badly for Denver to be a true prophet. I wanted it all to be real, even when I knew it wasn’t.
As I have come to be better acquainted with scriptures I know what Denver is teaching is false. It is a corruption of the scriptures. So much of what he teaches is so very close to the truth that it’s very hard to see through his deception, especially initially. I would expect nothing less of a false prophet leading people to a false Christ. His claims and teachings have to be impressive and very, very close to the truth, otherwise no one would follow him. This is why the scriptures warn us to be super careful to not be deceived by false prophets and even false Christs in the last days.
One thing is for sure, there is a real power that is with Denver and his followers. His followers think this is the Holy Ghost, but I know it isn’t. I have felt what the Holy Ghost really feels like, and the spirit that surrounds Denver and his followers is different. It’s a real spirit alright, just not the Holy Spirit.
I don’t expect you to believe a word I say. You must do what you think is right. I wish you all the best. I do believe that those who follow Denver are largely sincere seekers of truth. Perhaps the Lord will provide a means to uncover Satan’s veil of deception that is with Denver. I pray that he will.
I’ve said all I have to say on Denver and the movement. Take care.
It seems to me that your saying when someone doesn’t believe as you do, they are not being humble enough to receive a correct answer from God. It is my opinion that only false prophets and false teachers would ask people to pray about their message. True prophets would never tell people to “pray” about what they were doing. When a true prophet comes among us, he will give us scripture, like Paul and like Joseph did. We will know it’s true. Contrary to popular belief, the Book of Mormon does not ask us to pray whether or not it’s true; it says that once we have RECEIVED it (and already believe in it) that we should pray and ask if it is NOT true.
That’s where the part about being humble comes into play. We recognize how easily deceived we can be and pray to God and make sure that we are indeed on the correct path. But when true scripture/true prophets come along there will be no room for question. The evidence will be overwhelming to the humble followers of Christ, yet they will remain humble enough to pray and ask if it’s correct.
I find it interesting that it bothers you that MC read about DS so extensively. You ask why he never just stopped at 1 or 5 pages. What is happening right now with DS is extremely imperative to his salvation and the salvation of many many others. Either there is a true prophet leading people to eternal life, or there is a false prophet ruining lives and spreading the concept of a false christ.
There are many of us that recognize the apostasy of the LDS church and retain our belief in Jesus Christ and Joseph’s prophetic status. Right now Denver Snuffer seems to have a monopoly on people like us. This is why it is important to study DS and why he has such a huge pull on so many of our fellow saints. MC has provided many reasons in this blog thread why he rejects his message. You have neglected to comment on those. In fact, all DS followers brush off any criticism leveled against them.
According to the Book of Mormon, Abinadi was out on the lecture circuit among the people for at least two years before his direct confrontation with President Noah and the General Authorities. Reports of the contents of Abinadi’s talks probably filtered back to the Strengthening the Members Committee of that day, even as the talks were being delivered by Abinadi.
So I think it’s possible that Alma’s change of heart, repentance and courage were not a one-time burst of speed, but instead Alma was building momentum incrementally as the words of Abinadi were reported back to him over a two year period, and as he was struggling spiritually with the message of Christ he was hearing.
By the time Abinadi actually spoke in person to Noah and his court it is likely that Alma had already awakened to his awful situation and Abinadi’s sermon was the final burst of spiritual energy Alma needed to rise up. He had already been prepared for that moment, and for his foreordained mission.
Therefore, I can likewise believe that there is currently a good man among the general authorities of the LDS church being incrementally prepared by exposure to the words of Christ as delivered through Denver Snuffer.
I don’t think it’s unrealistic to assume that many, if not most, of the general authorities have by now read Passing The Heavenly Gift and Preserving The Restoration in order to consult together on damage control, and even out of personal curiosity. Transcripts of all the talks are easily accessible online for private reading. There are also numerous blogs with easy access, like this one.
I choose to believe that there is currently a man among the general authorities of the LDS church who is struggling spiritually right now, as he has been monitoring the movement of truth gaining momentum among the people. I believe he does read this blog, that’s why I addressed him directly.
The tragedy here is not that “none of them will (repent)… They are like the Sanhedrin, set in their ways, blind to their sins and mistakes, and uninterested in investigating or challenging the existing traditions or official doctrines.”
The real tragedy here is that those of us who say we want to be Zion do not yet act like a Zion people. What great things could happen among these men if we who so creatively criticize were instead united as one heart and one mind in fasting and prayer for them?
If the greatest among us shall be our servant, and the greatest among us is Christ, will He then not respond to our prayers that whatever particle of capacity for awareness and recognition still exists in any of these men may be reached and touched and amplified and healed by Him?
God will impart justice, and it will be terrible to witness at the level of accountability of these men. But it is our part to plead mercy, as we ourselves are in such dire need of mercy.
I feel strongly that there is at least one good man among the general authorities of the LDS church reading this, watching us, and taking all this to heart – a man who will do a magnificent work. Another Alma, in the pattern of things, is being prepared.
Since I don’t know who this man is and who, specifically to be praying for, I pray for all of these Profits, Sewers and Elevators, as if each of them were that one good man who can be reached by the Lord. He will need all of our prayers, and we will need him.
Great thought! What a day that would be! Could you imagine an Elder Maxwell-like figure leaving his position of power and prestige among the 12, being excommunicated, and starting to participate in fellowship with the other outcast saints. I hope to live to see such a day.
The Word of the Lord has been given to the School of the Prophets concerning Denver Snuffer. He is not a servant of the Lord, but is leading people astray.
It is encouraging to also know from the Lord that He has promised a coming “year of cleansing” in which He will remove all the Gentile pollutions from His church and restore it to Servants that will do His bidding. http://2bc.info/pdf/Section24.pdf
How can that be Heber since the School of the Prophets ended over 100 years ago. The Church is in apostasy now and the Lord has not corrected anything yet. The proof of that can be found in D&C 112:24
Behold, vengeance cometh speedily upon the inhabitants of the earth, a day of wrath, a day of burning, a day of desolation, of weeping, of mourning, and of lamentation; and as a whirlwind it shall come upon all the face of the earth, saith the Lord.
And upon my house shall it begin, and form my house shall it go forth, saith the Lord.
So Heber how can the school of the prophets be functioning when the Lord hasn’t done anything yet. Sounds to me like you are in the same boat at Denver. If I were you I would climb out of that boat since according to the D&C revelation was cut off to the Church in 1847 when they arrived in this valley according to D&C 101:43–64. There are lots of false prophets out and about there Heber. I would be careful in who you follow. IT
Hi iterry. The School of the Prophets I am talking about is the one authorized by the revelations found in the Second Book of Commandments. It was set up in 1982 in Boise Idaho. God foreordained all prophets before they were born. No one can tell God He cannot foreordain and raise up a prophet in our day. If you question the Priesthood authority behind this organization, you can read and study this: http://2bc.info/pdf/PAC.pdf
Thanks Heber for that explanation. But the problem I see is that until the one mighty and strong comes who is John the Beloved there will be no revelation given. The Lord set up an organization where only the president of the Church can receive revelation. That is made clear in the D&C. The problem is that if the president is not righteous then the Lord will not speak to him and we are left in the dark. So what the Lord did in the last days is opened up the scriptures like Isaiah and Ezekiel and they are the prophets sent to us to tell us to repent in lieu of the ones who are in apostasy.
That is how we can detect who is and isn’t a prophet. The Lord warned us in Matthew 24 that there would be false prophets among the people in the last days. D&C 101 says there will be NO revelation until the destruction of the Church. And that is why I cannot accept the 2nd book of commandments because it is outside of the revelations given. It would be like accepting the spurious gospels of the New Testament like the Book of Thomas. Those are all called pseudopigrapha and aren’t true revelation.
I can understand why you would run after that stuff though because there isn’t anything coming out of SLC. The saints are hungry for something from the Lord. But you have to be careful and stick within the revelations from God as I mentioned. IT
Hi. Well I do not agree with your all of your assessment. Have you ever read the 1880 Wilford Woodruff revelation given when John Taylor was the head of the church? Even President Taylor accepted that revelation. That revelation specifically says others can receive revelation besides the head of the church, but such revelation must be given to the head who would decide if it is to be given to the church members. So clearly there are problems to what you are saying. You are accepting (it seems and I could be wrong) the thinking and ideas of Robert Smith above your own ability to study the matter out and get guidance for yourself. JST Mark 9:40–48 should be read at the start of every General Conference. “Therefore, let EVERY MAN stand or fall, by himself, and not for another; or not trusting another.” Where in D&C 101 does it say there will be no more revelation until the destruction of the church? And even if “the church” does not have further revelation, there are other organizations that God has set up that are not the church. Can He not speak to them?
Heber, I put the commentary on this site about D&C 101. When you understand the metaphors then you understand that when Church arrived here in the valley revelation to the Church was removed. The reason for that removal is found in D&C 101. It says in 101:43-63 that they failed to build the tower. What is the tower? It is revelation. A prophet get into the tower and is able to look into the future. That is the meaning of the metaphor tower. Verse 48 says that this happened because it was a time of peace. Peace in the Church did not happen until we got here to this valley. The Church interprets this parable differently but they are wrong and this verse is the proof of that. The giving of money to the exchangers in verse 49 is the Church getting involved with Babylon. All of the twelve became business men in the early days. The Church started a bunch of businesses. They would borrow money from the Church then have the Church forgive their loans. There were even law suites filed between the early 12. They were like the ones today and are nothing more than business men – for that reason the Lord cut off revelation.
John Taylor wrote a bunch of revelations. Whenever he needed to get the 12 to do something he sat down and wrote out a revelation. In a number of journals the 12 reported that they knew they weren’t given by the Lord. I’ve read them and there is no metaphorical language in them which is a clue that they are not from the Lord. The Lord always speaks metaphorically and you see that language all through the D&C. There is none of that in JT’s revelations. They were never accepted as authentic by the 12 and they should not be. They are false and D&C 101 tells us why they are false.
But there is more, Hosea chapters 2 and 3 say the same thing. Those chapters say that when the saints were led here to the valley the Lord left us alone and told us to be faithful until he returns. In says were were left here without an ephod , and without teraphim Hosea 3:4. This is revelation and confirms D&C 101. So there is more than one scripture that tells us that revelation was cut off after the time of Joseph Smith.
What the Lord did is opened up the words of the ancient prophets to warn us in the last days. Those are the prophets you need to be concerned with not the bunch of false ones running around today claiming revelation.
Gee Ira, I hate to admit it but your reply makes me quite cynical. I usually really appreciate your comments on this blog, and also your comments on nephicode.blogspot.com. There are myriads of non-Mormon writers out there that have studied the “Word of the Lord to His servants the prophets” and they have their books they sell that explain things no one else has figured out. But you can be sure that these same writers will adamantly reject the idea that God can give any MORE “Word of the Lord to His servants the prophets”. And they will quote Revelation 22:18–19 to prove it. But Rev 22:18–19 actually does NOT put any conditions on God. It condemns any MAN that will add or take from a revelation God has given. When they use those verses to prove God will never bring forth more revelation they are themselves ADDING to those verses: doing the very thing those verses warn against. But you got to see their point of view: how can they sell their books if the Lord interferes by bringing further revelation that exposes the few errors they are also trying to sell? There was a fundamentalist writer some time ago that had a series of pamphlets titled: “How to be a Prophet”. The first thing he says is, “I do not claim to be a prophet…” Gee. Get out of here! If I want to learn to be a prophet, I want a prophet to teach me. I accept John Taylor’s revelations even if they undermine somebody’s book sales. Am I being too cynical? If apostles at the time rejected them, then I do not trust those apostles. Wilford Woodruff’s 1889 revelation did not condemn John Taylor, so that one would have to be false also. I believe no one has any right to put conditions on God calling a prophet today or ever. D&C 101 simply does not say God cannot call a prophet independent of His church. How much evidence do we need to finally see that Christ’s worst enemies are always priestcrafts in His own house?
Heber, I guess that is one of the points is that God will not call a prophet outside of the organization that He set up. Why would He do that? It would cause great confusion and people wouldn’t know what is correct. Afterall – God set up the organization.
Anciently He didn’t do that. He could send many prophets to warn the people to repent. But today the way the system was set up is the 12 ordain the one who is to be the Lord’s prophet and presents that person to the Lord and tells Him here is your prophet. What does the Lord do? Nothing – He can’t give that person revelation because today the so-called prophet is wicked. My stake president told me that the Lord would remove him if he were wicked. I told him nonsense – they have free agency and what happens is if the next one is just as wicked as the one before? They all are wicked men now running the Church.
And so we are left without revelation. As I mentioned the scriptures are clear to me that the Lord removed revelation after Joseph because they all ran after mammon instead of doing the work of the Lord. It all fits pretty good because all it takes is a look at the D&C to see that there aren’t any revelations added. Why weren’t any of the John Taylor revelations accepted and put into the D&C. Answer – the 12 wouldn’t accept them and knew they were all spurious. The revelations don’t even sound like the Lord speaking. I don’t know how you go about picking and chosing which are valid revelations from John Taylor. I haven’t found any that are from the Lord. So it is what it is. If you want to follow someone who say they receive revelation then it’s your choice of course. There are lots of faults prophets in the world. How do you tell who is the lord’s prophet? IT
I think we have been deceived long enough, the brethren are nice and probably trying hard to lead the church but I don’t think they are receiving revelations or conversing with God on anything, they may from time to time receive some inspiration but that is not how Zion should be, the scriptures testify of gifts and power of God to convince the nations, we are not convincing any one with our political corporate style, if anything we are convincing people to not believe. I disagree with those who say that we should stay put and wait for God to fix it or send some “strong one” to fix it, if we want true Zion, we member ought to repent from our iniquities, idolatry, greed, envy etc… and come to God with full purpose, we need to get rid of all these traditions and turn to God completely otherwise we will be cut off as the BOM testifies.
Jim, I don’t think there is any concession. Denver explains “The temple has only one real purpose: To convey God’s promise to exalt those who experience it; provided they abide the conditions for exaltation.” This is a conditional promise, and parallels the description of those who receive not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards receive it, such as those who inherit the terrestrial kingdom. At some future point, they will have to see Christ in the flesh, (not in the spirit world), to abide the same conditions. So just because the gate is strait and narrow, and few there be who find it in this life, it doesn’t mean that it isn’t absolutely required for the specific unconditional promise of eternal life that is imparted by coming into Christ’s presence. I resigned from the LDS Church a year ago. I am not LDS. I do not attend LDS sacrament meetings, but administer ordinances on my own and within fellowships. I consider myself Mormon and a brother to your movement, as you might consider the RLDS, even if you disagree with them and reject their claims to authority (for example). There is no reason we can’t live together in peace despite identifying as different types of Mormons. I’m not mad at the LDS Church, but I understand that is the only conclusion you can accept assuming that I have “apostatized” due to the handbook definition of that term meaning disloyalty to the organization. I have not apostatized from the gospel of Jesus Christ and the Restoration…I reject Brigham Young’s claims to authority beyond perhaps an Aaronic Priesthood commission that lasted until Apr 2014. Would be happy to discuss offline if you would like. As far as salvation in its most extensive latitude of interpretation, as the Lectures on Faith put it, I believe the scriptures are quite clear that you must see Christ in the flesh to receive that promise unconditionally, which then will take eons to work out. All other promises are conditional. I mean salvation as to overcome death by attaining to the power of the resurrection by being able to resurrect all those dependent on you, and not meaning your own resurrection, but to be a joint-heir with Christ, and to become precisely what He is at some future point, and to have His power. These are things that Joseph Smith taught, and Denver is just a parrot.
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In the Boise Rescue with Dallin Oaks and Richard Turley, Oaks said that neither he or the brethren have had a supernatural experience as Alma did. In the context of the question asked him was plain to me that they have not seen the Savior any of them. Thank you for this post! Well said and well written. You’ve gotten to the heart of the matter.
Way after the fact I know, but I just read this post for the first time.
I confess I have not read all 169 previous comments and I doubt anyone will read this one.
Thank you AB for your efforts to expose the “profits, sewers and elevators” for what they truly are: LIARS and CON MEN.
I continue to remain a member in questionable standing in the LDS church for 2 reasons: 1. The people in my ward are good people. 2. There are no other churches that are any better and some are a lot worse and my children need friends (we live in Mormonville, i.e. Utah Valley).
Having said that, I confess that for the past 10 years I have been on a very sad and painful voyage of discovery. It has pained me greatly to discover that the church I joined some 55 years ago is run by LIARS and CON ARTISTS.
It pains me greatly to know that what Joseph Smith started off so grandly has been co-opted by stupid, lying, evil deceivers.
Nevertheless, the Holy Ghost has testified to my soul that: The Book of Mormon is true; Joseph Smith was and still is a true Prophet, there are true Prophets on earth today (just not in the top 15 of the LDS church!), Jesus Christ lives (for I have seen Him), and the day of reckoning is coming very soon for all those who are LIARS and CON ARTISTS along with all the whoremongers and perverts of the world and for all those who love and make a lie.
May God bless those who are awakening that they may be led to COME UNTO CHRIST with their whole heart, might, mind and strength.
Thank you again AB!
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