Zion Postponed

city_of_zion_platThis last year has been a very difficult and yet enlightening one for me personally.  Most of you don’t know me and so I will spare you from much of the personal information.  But suffice it to say, this has been a year where I have learned much.  Like many in the world, I have seen sickness, death and destruction all around me.  I have looked into the skies at the signs that prophets foresaw millennia ago.  I have witnessed miracles and have seen love grow in some of my most important relationships.  I have experienced forgiveness in damaged or destroyed relationships and feel as though I’ve received added light.  And yet, I am reminded of what a fool I am.  So quick to anger, vanity, fear, retaliation, judgment, greed, and laziness.  The more I study and ponder, the more I recognize my awful state before God as well as the awful state of our church.

When I first began to allow myself to consider that the church might not be what I had always defended it to be, my world began to fall apart.  I was a bishop at the time.  To some I was the poster child of Mormonism.  Son of converts, valiant in my youth, from a large active family, son of a father who had many important church callings, of a mother known for her kindness and zeal; an eagle scout, returned missionary, temple married, BYU educated, a leader in the church at a young age.  I served in my first bishopric in my early twenties.  My second bishopric in my late twenties.  On the high council in my mid twenties.  I was interviewed as a potential stake president in my early forties and was told by the outgoing stake president that they almost selected me.

I share none of this to gloat or to brag.  I merely share it to demonstrate that when it came to commitment to the church, I was all in.  I loved the church with all my energy and served it and defended it for my entire life.

But, as I have noted here in this blog, there have been times along the way where my faith in the church has been challenged.  In times past, I most often erred on the side of defending the church and the brethren.  For much of my life, I had assumed the gospel and the church were mostly the same thing.   That began to change however, as I was met with further contradictions.  Separating the two became a required spiritual survival technique for me.

The last stand for me with the church was that I had held onto the Brethren being True Witnesses of Jesus Christ.  I believed they stood where I hoped to one day stand — even in His presence.  I believed in this doctrine since first gaining my testimony as a very young man.  In reality it was my testimony.   I read of Calling and Election Made Sure and I knew that this was man’s very purpose and I believed with all my heart that these particular men, the leaders of the church, HAD achieved this end!  After all, they had always reassured me that they “knew” Him and were special witnesses of Him.  Call me naive, but I believed them until only a few years ago.

Now, lest you think me apostate, let me remind my readers that I believe in God the Father, in His Son Jesus, in His servant Joseph and in the Restoration and in the Book of Mormon.  I am not a whacko.  I’m not a wannabe polygamist.  I consider myself a very normal “LDS” person.  BUT I do not and can no longer believe that the leaders of this church are anywhere near the equivalency of Joseph Smith.  To say so is to mock God!  Additionally, my spiritual journey has led me to believe that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is in a state of apostasy and has been since the early days of the Church when its members refused to accept the fulness of the Gospel.  This is further evidenced by the fact that LDS prophets today do not prophesy!  They do not see!  They do not reveal!  Ironically, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men.  They worship Handbooks and consult the learned and rely upon their attorneys.  Their lips draw nigh unto Him, but their hearts are so far from Him!  They preach the precepts of men and lead souls to Hell, yea even the very elect.  Because they do not KNOW Him!  They cannot have the testimony of Jesus nor have they received the Gospel.  If they had, there would be an abundance of signs that follow after them.  They would be healing the sick, they would be obsessed with expounding Scripture especially Isaiah, they would be focused on the poor and in building up Zion.  When’s the last time you even heard an LDS prophet speak of building Zion?  Thus we are of Paul and of Thomas and of Gordon and even of Jesus, but we do not have His testimony before the Father and thus we are damned!

I read this week in the Joseph Smith Papers that in June 1834, Joseph announced that the Lord had revealed to him that the redemption of Zion was being postponed “for a little season” (page 44, JS Papers, Volume 1, Journals also see D&C 105).  The reason for this postponement, despite that Joseph had just rallied an armed expedition of righteous and zealous volunteers to “restore and redeem Zion” was because the church refused to live by the laws of the Celestial Kingdom AND because the “leading elders of the church were not yet endowed with power from on high.”

I ask you my friends, are we any closer to the establishment of Zion today?  Have our leaders now truly been endowed from on High?  More so than the original 12?  Have they been in His presence?  Can we trust them as true messengers?  Are we living by the law of the Celestial Kingdom?   Joseph once taught, “Without a Zion and a place of deliverance, we must fall, because the time is near when the sun will be darkened, the moon turn to blood, the stars fall from heaven and the earth reel to and fro.”  Have we fallen?  Will we fall?  Are the signs and prophesies being fulfilled while Zion is yet postponed?

Do you trust these men with your salvation?  I do not!  Do you trust them to save your children?  I DO NOT!  Do they teach the words of eternal life?  Or are they just nice, good men, trying to do the best they can with what they’ve been given?  How are you receiving their teachings!?  Very well?  If so, then you will be damned for they teach the philosophies of men, mingled with scripture.

We must needs repent and be born again before it is everlastingly too late.  We must awaken and learn to discern between true and false messengers or we will die when Christ comes AND shall never be a part of Zion.  If we remain lulled and contented by these current teachings we will never recognize true messengers when and if they ever come to us.

I no longer see things as I did as a child.  I now judge of their works and am no longer fooled.  I have been in their secrets councils.  I witness that they would rather cover up the truth than expose their own hypocrisy!  They make exceptions and play favorites.  The rules do not apply to their own!  I witness that they know not God and stand not in His presence.  I add my witness that only the broken hearted and the contrite in spirit will be filled with light and be saved in Zion.  I believe that a servant has come among us who has the words of eternal life, if we will be but humble enough to read, to learn, and to hear.

66 thoughts on “Zion Postponed

  1. Ahuizotl

    Thanks for being so personal. I remember when I first had those same thoughts and feelings.

    I tried to bring others with me and ended up in a bishopric! How ironic. In fact the stake president told me that he had submitted my name first, but SLC said no.

    I’m still not sure why he told me this.

    I recall this was the first article I had read by One Who Is Watching.


    It opened my eyes to Joseph’s failed attempt to bring forth Zion.

    It really gave me a schooling in church history and how little I really knew about my own church history and promises of the Lord.

    I know now more than ever that Jospeh was a prophet of God and believe the scriptures he brought forth to be true and from God.

    Zion will come again, I’m just not sure that Denver is the guy to lead the way. I’ve read his words and listened to his talks and the spirit isn’t there for me.

    He’s clearly very knowledgable. Reminds me a bit of Hugh Nibley at times, delving into the rites of ancient Israel and Egypt. In other words, relying too much on logic and reason and sciences of man.

  2. Robert Sinclair

    Be not too discouraged. All these things happening in the House of Ephraim have been foretold and written to must needs happen.

    Read dilligently the words of the prophets Hosea, Isaiah, Micah, Jeremiah, Joel, and others reguarding this House of Ephraim.

    Everything is and has happened as has been written would happen.

    Ephraim has gone after the mother of harlots and whore of all the earth and of Babylon, as a silly dove, and an unwise son, not realizing Babylon has many poor at the bottom of it’s kingdom, no equity, while Zion has no poor among them, with all having equity of stewardships of inheritances in the land, with homes, and meat in their homes, and raiment as well, all the members sharing and caring one for another, led by men like Mekchizek and Enoch, following after the order of the Son of God.

    Now is the time to fullfill Hosea 14:8, and as is written in the Book of Joel, testified to Joseph Smith, was not just yet in his day, but soon to be.

    So weep as you are and howl, and sound the alarm, and blow the trumpet in Zion, that perhaps, the old men and husbandmen will give ear and consider the desolate, condition of “equity ” in the vineyard among the members of their house.

    That these administers of the law, might be ashamed, and acknowledge they have set up a Corporation of Babylon, with all kinds of poor at the bottom of their corporation, rather than the Church of the living God, where there are “no poor among them” “all things common” among them, “”equal in their temporal things” and this not grudgingly, setting up the members of their stakes, and wards, and branches, with inheritances of stewardships, of covenants and deeds that cannot be broken, sufficient for the support of their families. (See D&C 42 & 58 & 70)

    This from the storehouse treasury of the LORD, and a feast of fat things well prepared, from the rich and learned, wise, and noble among the members.

    The leaders can wake up and see that the pattern of Babylon, is what they have set up, and return to lay the foundation and set up the tower, with money they have kept away from the poor, putting it out to the exchangers instead.

    But by acknowledging their mistakes, begin to bring back the money put out to the exchangers, to get a far better from those members, who have proven themselves, as is written in D&C 20:37 & 69, to impart unto them covenants and deeds, see D&C 42:30 to properties free and clear, to undo their heavy burdens, and break their yokes off their backs, setting them free of poverty, that the LORD, may come to them as he did with Peter and the Twelve, after they made distribution of the storehouse treasury, and had “all things common”, Peter and the Twelve afterward being endowed with cloven tongues of fire and power from on high. Peter afterwards, leaving, raising the dead, healing the crippked since birth, and many other manifestations, of power he was given thereafter.

    Oliver Cowdrey laid claim to the Twelve in his day that they must, in order to have their callings and settings apart as apostles, be made full and complete, meet God face to face, and have him lay his hand upon them. Until such time completion of this calling and setting apart, and ordination was still pending…………

    Oliver would know, he was the only other one other than Joseph Smith, to have been called set apart and ordained by Peter, James and John.

    Oliver later lamenting that both he and Joseph going after the things of this world, still believed in these things.

    So as is written in D&C 105:11 the elders in charge, need to still be endowed with power from on high as Peter and his Twelve were.

    So all is not lost, for the time is at hand for this awakening and acknowledgement from Ephraim, continue to sound the alarm, that perhaps soon, very soon, the princes of the House of Ephraim of Israel, will fullfill, Hosea 14:8, and Joel 2:16, and seek to bring his bride out of the closet, returning to keep this “United Order” and fullness of the gospel, to see their are no poor among them. Let us all fast and pray, this can be done by this next coming April General Conference, that stakes can be strengthened, homes and lands fully paid off, over the coming months, that this family may become with equity and income coming in, one of the strongest financial families in the world, blessed and prospered, to be able to help many, many others, as an ensign and tower and light and sign of the true church of the living God, no poor among us of our own freewill, trusting in Jesus Christ, that there is more than enough and to spare to get this done.

    Then let us go unto the House of Judah, to show them the “One Stick” wherein these laws are written herein, to fullfill Ezekiel 37:15–23, where we both serve God, the least among us as if they were him.♡

  3. Robert Sinclair

    Made some mistakes typing on my phone, meant to type Melchizedek and a few other mistakes, don’t know how to edit later, please forgive my mistakes in writing.♡

  4. Robert Sinclair

    I am a great grandfather and was born into the house of Ephraim. I have posted more of my thoughts for free on LDSFF, if you wish to see more of what I think and have come to know and understand after searching the “One Stick” and “The Book of Enoch the Prophet”, and other scriptures written.♡

  5. Dave the Disappointing

    Before your inevitable confrontation that may lead you to end this blog, at least in this format, I want to say that, as one who has known you better and longer than probably just about anybody who has posted on here, I know your pure heart, your lifetime of devotion to the Church and its leaders, your love of the scriptures and the prophets, your genuine selfless service to countless people, both members and nonmembers alike. I have been well acquainted with many faithful LDS people, but have never met anyone whose charity and faithfulness surpass yours, my friend. I have witnessed countless examples of your discipleship of Christ. I don’t know how you are going to resolve the conflicted state in which you find yourself, but I hope and pray that you come out of this feeling closer to Christ and at peace within your heart and within your family. You will forever have my friendship, love and respect–even while I am suffering the unimaginable hell or outer darkness that the many professedly benevolent religions declare awaits me for my failure to choose the correct door.

  6. Andrew Bradley

    “Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins”

    I advise to just walk away, the persecution is much needed. Jesus came to bring division.

    We must offer a broken heart and contrite spirit. Not a double life.

  7. Robert Sinclair

    I agree to understand while Ephraim pursues the mother of harlots and whore of all the earh and Babylon, good to come out, but not totally abandon this house. But weep and howl, and sound the alarm, of these things this house is doing. Take of your tithes and offerings, and give these things, for now, directly unto the poor, as a sign unto Ephraim, what it is supposed to be doing.

    Corporation Babylon is built up upon the backs of many poor at it’s base, while Zion is built up, with no poor among you at it’s base.

    Good for Ephraim to learn the difference.

    Ephraim was to pay it’s debts, which was done long ago, then lay the foundation and set up the tower of Zion, no poor among you, which tower can be seen from afar, as an ensign, and light, and sign to all the nations of this earth, of the true Church of the living God, equal in their temporal things, living a “United Order”, and this not grudgingly, as the celestial law, and the fullness of the gospel teaches.

    Ephraim paid it’s debts, then put the remainder into buildings to worship above the care of the poor, as idols made from the hands of men, which buildings and public benefit projects were only to be done with the “residue” after the seeing there were no poor, from distribution of stewardships of covenants and deeds, for homes and lands, that could not be broken, see about “reside” after the tower is set up in D&C 42:33–35, after this “first consecration” to the poor, of D&C 42:30.

    And also has put the remainder out to the exchangers, away from the poor of their house, which thing ought not to be done, but set up the tower first, see D&C 101:53.

    Bring these surplus monies, put out to the exchangers, and money spent on buildings, such as temples, back to be distributed unto the poor, of homes and meat in their homes, as if they were Jesus Christ himself, that there may be meat in his house, for as you do for your poor, you do for God himself. Rob him of these tithes and offerings, no longer, which as is written in Joseph Smith translation of Genesis 14:37–38, were given unto the keeper of the storehouse of God, Melchizedek, for the poor, yes, for “the poor”, look and see.

    Corporation Ephraim, uses tithes, not for the poor, so awaken this house, from this deep sleep fallen upon it’s Corporate soul, and Twelve advisors, and get them to look at the charge given them of Oliver Cowdrey, that their settings apart, and ordinations to apostles, are not full and complete, till they have met God face to face, and be has laid his hand upon them, after distribution is done, as with Peter and his Twelve in the Book of Acts, chapter 4 verse 32, where they had “all things common”, and the Nephite Twelve, as is testified in 3rd Nephi 26:19, where they had “all things common, and again testified in 4th Nephi verse 3, that they had, “all things common” among them, and as Peter, they did heal the sick, and raise the dead, and cause the lame to walk, and the blind to receive their sight, and the deaf to hear, and all manner of miracles, did they work, as is written in 4th Nephi verse 5.

    So weep and howl, and sound the alarm about these things to this House of Ephraim, that perhaps they will give ear and learn to be ashamed, as is written in Joel 1:11 and Hosea 14:8, that they bring his bride out of the closet, as is written in Joel 2:16, and the foundation and tower set up, of no poor among them, returning this coming April General Conference, to keep the “United Order” celestial law given.

    You and they will be glad you did.♡

    Don’t give up, on the House of Ephraim, but have them look and see, what was done to them in their town of Shiloh, where the tabernacle and ark were held, utterly laid to waste, plowed as a field, and the whole seed of Ephraim, cast out, of no worth, as salt without savor. Good to learn from past mistakes, and not repeat them over and over again, see Jeremiah 7:3–15 and learn.

    Ephraim is still his dear son, though he be as an unwise son, a silly dove without a heart, that feeds on the wind and precepts of man.

    Help awaken this house, from the deep sleep fallen upon them even now, that they are building up Babylon, on the backs of multitudes of their poor, for Babylon has many poor at it’s base and foundation, while Zion has none.

    Good to understand the difference, and what to set up, no poor among you, through the offerings cast into the storehouse of God.♡

  8. Owyhee cowboy

    Thanks for laying your hand down, and showing cards.I too have had the same kind of year
    or worse.

    Have to keep reminding myself to differentiate between “The Church” and
    “Gospel”.Which is not hard if I just keep on reading scriptures.Than the contradictions
    are clearly odvious.

    But I can’t go to church anymore, or support the leaders. As I have stated that they have
    lost their moral authority in my view.Which makes a very interesting quandary with
    friends and family.

    But your either right, or not, and willing to take the spears and and arrows.
    The truth will set you free as the saying goes.

    But seeing naked pictures of your grandma!And having to explain can be mentally devastating….I know trust me.

    But keep up the good fight, and be the lonely watchmen on the tower
    on your side of he pasture.

    I will be, if you will.

  9. Dave the Disappointing

    I like the clever pun in the title as it implies that, in sustaining the leadership, one is sustaining their expenditure of billions of dollars in sacred funds on rather unsacred ventures such as the “great and spacious” shopping mall, a construction project that entailed, among other things, sewers and elevators, ultimately for the profit of the corporation of the president. However, I think it is a step too far to apply the expression to the leaders themselves.

    Although they are not prophets, seers, and revelators (as I used to believe when still a Mormon), they are well-intentioned devotees to a religion that they take almost as seriously as they take themselves. They live the fiction and play the role that they were taught from their childhood or from their convert-conversion, as most Mormons do. They know no other perspective. Mr. Bednar, for example, with his lifetime of faithful adherence to Mormon teachings, probably really does believe he has risen to heights of spirituality, qualifying him as “scripture,” as he is alleged to have identified himself. When the Mormon authorities imply that they are “special witnesses” without actually having anything more than a stubborn conviction, they are continuing a familiar pattern established early in their LDS journey when they bore their testimonial cliches while shedding the self-induced tears they took to be evidence of the Spirit touching their souls. Most Momons are well acquainted with the feeling. So these “prophets,” I suspect, really believe in their own delusions. I give them all credit for their earnestness and sincerity, just as I do the current leaders of other traditional, peaceful religions, especially since they did not start the religions.

    As for the false prophets, the founders of religions they know to be false, I have a different opinion. I am much more troubled by people who invent false religions from their own imaginations, setting in motion generations of corruption. The real charlatans of Mormonism are not, in my opinion, the confused, tradition-trapped leaders of our day who stumble along gracelessly and unprophetically trying to navigate through the devil’s snares in the decadent 21st Century. The blame goes much further back in history to Joseph and his enterprising team who created the Mormon Church.

    The leaders of the Mormon Church in the last several decades have been trying to Christianize it as imperceptibly as possible. I give them credit for trying, but their attempt is hopeless, for it is impossible to morph a theology of infinite polytheism, materialism and man-worship into the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Joseph and his team denied the essential nature of God as the one infinite, supreme, eternal being who caused the existence of matter and who created us. Further, they denied the sufficiency of the blood of God’s sacrificial Lamb.

    I hope that all Mormons, including the current leaders of the church, will awaken to the deception they have been following, turn to the Biblical God and leave behind the impossible theology of Mormonism. No matter how much any of them try to make Mormonism true, it will still be founded on blasphemous lies and delusions. The hope is not in getting back to the original complex web of fanciful doctrines imagined by Joseph and his co-conspirators, but in opening our eyes to the simplicity of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and accepting the invitation to believe in Him and be saved.

  10. Blair Larsen

    I believe the important thing to remember is that no one but God, Christ, and the angels that they send will be “leading the way” to Zion. Denver does not need to “lead” us, and we do not need to follow him. Denver’s only responsibility, just like ours, is to do what the Lord tells him to do. Our only hope of being a part of Zion is to Know the Lord. Following Denver will not bring us to that point, although it may help. The only leader Zion will have is the Lord. All others will be equal, with no hierarchy, founding circle, or social “click.” I can only hope and pray that I will be ready for the angels to gather me there.

  11. Missy

    What does one do when their heart is broken? What does one do when it is their own church that breaks your heart ? The answer is that give up and leave. The present day church is not the church I was raised in. The people are meaner and more intolerant. They do not have any qualms about insulting you to your face, explaining that you don’t follow the Prophet. My reply is that I follow Jesus Christ. I can no longer tolerate the social and political part of this church. I am shocked in the members hatred for our President. There is absolutely no respect for that office. Is it because he is a Democrat or because he is black, or both? Why do members listen to the hateful words of Glenn Beck and his ilk? Why is he still a member in good standing ? Why are some of our members praising Donald Trump with their endorsement on Facebook? Why is it that if you are Democrat you are considered to be an apostate ? The latest policy concerning the children of gay people was the last straw for myself and my husband. The children are our future. They need the gift of the Holy Ghost. The need all the spiritual help there is to offer them! What is this policy going to do to the missionary effort in the United States? How many more members are going to leave because of this policy? I have gay family members and I have watched them suffering because of their lifestyle. It breaks my heart more than anyone will ever know …..

  12. G.azelem

    Anonymous Bishop,

    You seem to understand that the fulness of the gospel was lost from the earth when it was rejected by the membership of the LDS church in its early days. To that I applaud. That puts you miles ahead of most.

    Yes, the church rejected the fullness of the gospel late 1834 by not complying with the requisites of the celestial law. This brought about a small season of chastisement before Zion could be redeemed.

    So exactly how does Denver Snuffer fit into this? [I’m assuming this is the servant you believe is among us?]

    He wants to “preserve” the Restoration… But there’s nothing to preserve! The fullness of the priesthood/gospel has been lost from the earth. He claims to have had his calling and election made sure– but this is impossible. The fullness of the priesthood– to receive the second comforter– is no longer on the earth.

    Here’s a post where I detail some of my reasoning:


    Take care, friend.

    Just remember, the elect will NOT be deceived. The scripture in Mathew states that that would only happen IF it were possible.

    22 … if possible, they shall deceive the very elect, who are the elect according to the covenant.

  13. AB 2

    Anonymous Bishop,

    I too have walked in your shoes, have held the same callings and have had very special experiences in the Church. These experiences served as a spiritual foundation for my belief in God. I used to connect my belief in God with my belief in the Church, they were synonymous; but with all the information now available, including the Church’s Essays, my beliefs became conflicted. I was fighting within myself, trying to reconcile that my experiences and original beliefs could only be valid if the Mormon Church was right about everything. History has now proven otherwise, and then there were those certain passages in the Book of Mormon and the D&C that continued to haunt me.

    Mormon preaches a powerful apocalyptic sermon in chapter 8 about the state of the Church and America prior to the calamities. He tells us that he has seen us and knows our doing and that there are but only a few that “do not walk in the pride of their hearts.” (Mormon 8:35–40)

    In 3 Nephi, the Savior teaches that the gospel will go first unto the Gentiles and then, if the Gentiles don’t repent, it shall be brought out from the Gentiles and given to the House of Israel. (3 Nephi 16:10–15) Yet the Church claims it will sail us all to the safe harbor to Zion.

    In the D&C the Lord tells the Prophet Joseph Smith that darkness covers the earth and that vengeance cometh speedily and it will begin at his house. (D&C 112:23–26) In Pres. Benson’s talk in April Conference 1969 he said, “To the Humble Followers of Christ”, “I look forward to that cleaning, it’s needed within the church” meaning that it has not taken place yet.

    D & C 50:4 states “Behold, I the Lord, have looked upon you, and have seen the abominations in the Church that profess my name.” Yet the Church preaches “all is well in Zion”

    After reading McConkie’s definition of Gentiles in Mormon Doctrine, I began to read the Book of Mormon with new eyes. He said, “After the Kingdom of Israel was destroyed and the Ten Tribes were led away into Assyrian captivity, those of the Kingdom of Judah called themselves Jews and designated all others as Gentiles. It is this concept that would have been taught to Lehi, Mulek and the other Jews who ….found the great Nephite and Lamanite civilizations.” Mormon Doctrine Second Edition page 311

    By understanding that the word Gentile could mean LDS, a new spiritual awakening began to take place. Couple this with Gileadi’s “The Apocalyptic Book of Isaiah” to explain the Isaiah passages and I began to see the scriptures in a totally different light. Its veiled passages now started to have meaning. What I used to try to wade through, thinking that in time it would all work out, now became an explosion of understanding. To think that this knowledge has come to me by way of a lying or deceiving spirit runs contrary to the spiritual confirmations I’ve received.

    As I reviewed the LDS Church’s “2015 Year in Review” from their mormonnews.org, I began to see that the organization has become Pharisaical by the way they have built a hedge about the Restoration and the Doctrine of Christ with the polices and guidelines found in their Handbook, which acts as new commandments, which they teach for doctrines the commandments of men. http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/2015-year-in-review

    The Church is more of a culture now, than a body of saints striving to keep the restoration alive. Denver aptly explains this hedge in one of his blog posts “There is no office in either the LDS Church or the priesthood of God called “Prophet.” Nor is there an office in the LDS Church or the priesthood called “Seer;” nor “Revelator” nor “Translator.” There is an office called “President” and an office called “Apostle” and “High Priest” and “Elder” and others.” http://denversnuffer.blogspot.com/2014/05/never-been-dissident.html

    Armed with the doctrine of infallibility, the Church has now moved in a different direction and I believe that the end times are firmly upon us. We are seeing the literal fulfillment of the Lord setting his hand again the second time. (Jacob 6:2)

    When the Savior came to the more righteous of the remaining Nephites after the destruction from his crucifixion and resurrection, he met with a small group of church members, but they as a group where not saved because they were members, each one of them were individually invited one by one to come and touch the Savior and personally gain redemption. (3 Nephi 11:13–17)

    Salvation has always been an individual thing and I want to be as the Sheppard’s of old, watching the stars by night, and waiting for Angels to bring the word that it’s time to gather for Christ the Lord has come again.

    Thanks for another great post,


  14. LDS Anarchist

    I believe that a servant has come among us who has the words of eternal life, if we will be but humble enough to read, to learn, and to hear.

    Um…so, who is this servant you speak of?

  15. Ted

    The stick of Enoch will again shake the earth. The almighty powers of on high will come home to redeem Zion. I’ve seen it in the skies and know it to be true. Our kindred dead will come forth and speak with the tongue angels. Ephraim’s stick will be restored and he will again rise from the grave. Infallibility lies only with those chosen ones who have been redeemed in the presence of our Lord. May it ever be so, Amen.

  16. Michael Davis

    I feel truly sorry and my heart is heavy to hear these words from a follower of Christ. First let me state that I am against discrimination. Christ bore all sin that we may all have the ability to return to our Father in Heaven. My sins are no better then anyone else’s sins. That means he bore the sins of Homosexuals as well. But this comes with a condition. That you forsake that life and repent and come unto Christ. If someone is knowingly going against God, and is unrepentant then they must carry the weight of that sin themselves. We need to do a better job of standing up for God, and His Plan of Salvation. We need to stop condoning Homosexuality and do a better job of teaching those afflicted with same sex attraction. We need to kneel in prayer with them, fast for them and teach them of the abomination they are currently making. But to condone and to say that it is ok because they can’t choose who they are attracted to is completely false. That is like saying that pediphilia should be ok because they are attracted to children and it isn’t their fault that they don’t find adults attractive. Or Alcoholics don’t have a choice. Everybody has problems that they have to over come in this life. Some have bigger problems than others but we all have afflictions.

    Do you believe that everyone in this life is blessed with being able to marry someone they are physically attracted to? I have friend who were not blessed with good looks and they were unable to attract someone from the opposite sex that they found physically attractive. So they married someone that they were compatible with. But the truth is that at some point we all move past physical attraction and on to the more important part of our spouses. If we don’t do this then I can promise you that your marriage will never work.

    I believe that the churches stance is completely right. It helps the children and takes confusion out of their lives. It allows them to grown into adults without having to have the dilemma of choosing between their parents and the church. Please remember that if a child is baptized and accepts Jesus Christ, from that point forward they have to be in opposition to the same sex life style. This can make for a very difficult home life. Remember this as well, 8 years of age is not the required baptismal age. It is the minimum age. The savior himself was not baptized until 32 years of age. Joseph Smith was not baptized after the Father and Son appeared to him, even though he was 12 years old. Our beloved Father had him wait until he was 25 years of age before the gift of baptism was give to him.

    I hope you reconsider your stance, please remember who you are standing with. I will pray for you and your husband. I will also pray for your family members who are afflicted with same sex attraction. I will also pray for their children tonight in hopes that they see the Lords hand in this decision.

    PS I don’t dislike Obama because he is a Democrat, I dislike Obama because he is against Christianity. Every chance he gets he compares Christianity to ISIS. I sadly admit I helped vote him into office 7 years ago and I have been regretting it ever since.

  17. Robert Sinclair

    “The Book Of Enoch The Prophet” discovered in 1773 by the Scottish Explorer James Bruce, translated by Richard Laurence, put into print in 1883 out of London, came out not long after Joseph Smith testified in D&C 107:57 that it would soon be out an testified of. In chapter LXXXIX, it is written how the Book of Destruction was opened, and how Enoch was shown the destruction that would be wrought by the final 12 and seventy shephereds, to whom the sheep would be delivered up, but killed. The blind sheep and these shephered, being judged, found guilty, and thrust into a flaming abyss of fire, the sheep burning, their bones consuming.

    Not a pretty picture, of those taught to oppress.

    So Enoch goes on to point out the paths of oppression and the path of righteousness.

    Good to read these written words of your ancient grandfather Enoch, how to be a plant of rectitude, and righteousness.♡

  18. AMJ

    I loved your post. Your post really resonated with me. I do believe Denver is a servant of the Lord. I was reading Isaiah 11:1 (Gileadi’s Translation) A shoot will spring up from the stock of Jesse and a branch from its graft bear fruit.

    The stock being Christ, the shoot or watersprout (do not bear fruit) being a servant that preserves the life of the tree until the branch (the main servant spoken of in Isaiah) can take hold and be grafted in…at which time the majority of the shoot will be cut off. I love Denver’s book cover on the back of Preserving the Restoration. That is clearly a shoot. I love the work he is doing to Preserve the work of God brought forth by Joseph Smith. I do not know who plays what role for certain, but I do think Denver could be the shoot spoken of in Isaiah.

  19. brotherjr

    Thank you for your open and honest posts. I too have found the church to be in apostasy. Anyone who looks with an honest heart can see it. Here is my question: For those who leave the church, esp. if they live in Mormonville (Utah County), how do they propose to perserve the restoration for their children? Leaving the church in Mormonville leads to shunning and children often suffer the most, esp. those with a weak or non-existent testimony of the restoration, the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith. They are prone to drift away and lose all interest in religion of any type. Any discussion would be welcome. Thank you.

  20. Rocky

    AMJ, I found this definition of who the gentiles are much better than anything I have every seen. It is written by Robert Smith. The Church has now vacated the idea that the members are even Ephraim. This is apostasy and satanist doctrine. And another of the many reasons I am no longer active in this apostate church. Rocky.


    Perhaps the term that has caused the most difficulty and division among members of the Church today over the Book of Mormon is the word “Gentile.” It is used very many times by Nephi in the early chapters of the Book of Mormon in reference to the early immigrants to this land and the nations from which they came, among which, we, the members of the Church, are apparently included. This has led many members and writers to conclude that we are not really of the blood of Israel, but are merely “Gentiles” who have been given the gospel and adopted into Ephraim.
    The idea that the majority of us are not Israelites is a false one and is based on a misinterpretation of this word. It is unfortunate that Nephi used this word, although, in fact, he did not use nor could he have used this particular word. There is no such word in Hebrew. The Hebrew word from which it came to be translated in the English Bibles is goi or the plural goyim. This word was commonly used in Hebrew writings and especially in the Old Testament. The amazing thing is that this ancient word was not used at all as we use it today. Let me briefly explain how this word came about.
    I have written in other commentaries that the word did not arise until the Middle Ages in Europe when English was originated and became an important language. The first scriptures written in English were done in about the eighth century. This was just after the Anglo-Saxon invasion of England which began in 585 A.D. Later the Vikings came between 787 and 878 A.D. In the eighth century Britain was Christianized by a missionary named Augustine (not the famous Catholic scholar St. Augustine). After that time, scriptures began to be written into English which were translated from the Latin versions.
    The word Gentile was translated from the Latin word gentilis which meant one who was not a Roman citizen. Jews living in the Salt Lake City area like to tell the humorous anecdote that Utah is the only place in the world where Jews are called Gentiles. This is baloney, of course, but they like to tell their friends this story. So by the definition in the first century, Christ, the apostles and all the Jews were properly called Gentiles, because they were not Roman citizens. Paul tells us in Acts 22, however, that he is a born Roman citizen. All the rest were Gentiles and only Romans could be non-Gentiles.
    In the fourth century the meaning was changed to define other people. At that time it came to be used to define those who were heathen or pagan. Jews were Jews and Christians were Christians and these terms were adequate and definitive. The word adopted this meaning centuries after the last book of the New Testament was written so this cannot be a meaning of the word in any of those books. The word was used by later writers to say what they thought it meant in the Bible and in other usage but this is totally without authority.
    Goi originally means a nation and the plural, goyim, means nations. It is a mass noun as we call them. It can also mean people or race depending on the context. It can refer to either Jews or non Jews. It is much like the word man. It can mean mankind in general and include both men and women. It can be used in a sentence to distinguish a man from a woman and mean the male of the species. It can also be used to mean a mature male as opposed to a boy so it has variant meanings depending on the context.
    From a work by another scholar I read the following statistics: The word goi occurs 557 times in the Old Testament. The KJV translates it gentile 30 times, heathen 142 times, nation 373 times, people 11 times, and another one time. The SRV translates it gentile only nine times. In a footnote, the translators tell us that five of those nine should be nations.
    In the New Testament the word ethnos or the plural form are the equivalent words for the Hebrew goi and goyim. It occurs 164 times in the New Testament. In the KJV it is translated gentiles 93 times, heathen 5 times, nation/nations 64 times and people two times. Even in these translations to English, goi and goyim are still translated to nation or nations most of the time. But even where the word gentiles is used, there is no justification for translating it this way and the proper translation should be nations or peoples.
    While the word gentilis was changed to mean “not something,” as one scholar wrote, it depends who is saying it and where he is standing. If a Buddhist monk spoke Latin and he wanted to refer to the people who are not Buddhists, he would refer to them as gentiles or gentile which is the Latin plural. If he spoke Hebrew, however, he would refer to them as goyim. His goyim or gentile would include Jews, other Israelites and everybody else who is not Buddhist.
    The terms goi and ethnos are used in both the Old Testament and the New Testament to refer to Israel. Let me list a few. These are from the so-called Authorized Version which I refer to as the KJV which is the one generally used in the Church.
    Gen. 12:2. “And I will make you into a great nation (goi).” He is not promising to make Abraham into a great Gentile.
    Gen. 17:4–5. “My covenant is with you, and you will be father of many nations (goyim) and your name will be Abraham, father of many nations (goyim)”. Again, he is not telling him that he will make him the father of many Gentiles.
    Gen. 20:4. “Lord, will you also slay an innocent nation? (goi).” He is not asking if he will destroy an innocent Gentile.
    Gen. 25:23. “Two nations (goyim) are in thy womb.” This could no way be Gentiles.
    Gen. 35:11. “And God said unto him,… a nation (goi) and a company of nations (goyim) shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins.” The Lord is speaking to Jacob and he is referring to the tribes of Israel as the goyim that will come of his loins.
    Gen. 48:19. “…but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations (goyim).” This is the blessing of Jacob on the head of Ephraim. He would become a multitude of nations not a multitude of Gentiles.
    Isa. 1:4. “Alas, a nation (goi) astray…” The Lord in Isaiah refers to Ephraim, us, as a nation astray, not Gentiles gone astray.
    Isa. 10:6. “I will commission him against a godless nation (goi), appoint him over the people (am).” This is the prophecy of the king of Assyria coming to scourge Ephraim in the last days.
    Jer. 31:36. “Only if these decrees vanish from before me, declares the Lord, will the descendants of Israel ever cease to be a nation (goi) before me.”
    Luke 7:5. “He loveth our nation (ethnos) and hath built us a synagogue.”
    The same term is found and translated “nation” in John 11:48, 50 and Acts 24:2, 17 and elsewhere. This is sufficient to give you the idea, however. From the use of the terms goi and ethnos, it is clear that they do not refer to non-Israelite people nor do they fit the current definition of Gentiles as we use it.
    There are many passages in both parts of the Bible that use the terms goi and ethnos referring to other nations outside of Israel. I will not bother to quote them. But I will quote a few verses that refer to all nations which include both Israel and other nations.
    Gen. 22:18. “And in thy seed shall all the nations (goyim) of the earth be blessed.”
    Gen. 25:23. “Two nations are in thy womb.” (I quoted this above, but it also applies here. This is Jacob and Esau, one who became the father of Israel and the other the father of the Arabs who are non-Israelites as we define them although they are descended from Isaac.
    1 Chron. 16:23-24. “Declare his glory among the heathen (goyim)… his marvelous works among the nations (goyim).”
    Psalm 9:19–20. “Let the heathen (goyim) be judged in thy sight. Put them in fear, oh Lord; that the nations (goyim) may know themselves to be but men. Notice in these two passages that goyim is translated both as heathen and as nations in the same passage. Matt. 24:9, 14. “And ye shall be hated of all nations (goyim) for my name’s sake. This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached for a witness to all nations (goyim).”
    Matt. 28:19. “Go ye therefore and teach all nations (goyim).”
    Acts. 10:35. “But in every nation (goi) he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.” This is every nation, not Gentiles.
    There is another word that is found in the New Testament that is sometimes translated Gentiles in the KJV. The word hellen is found 27 times in the New Testament. The KJV correctly translates it as Greeks 20 times but in seven places, they use the word Gentiles. All modern English translations have corrected this and no other uses the word Gentiles. This shows a major problem with the KJV translation.
    The word Gentile as it is used, became a convenient way to refer to Israelites versus non-Israelites. The word has evolved in modern times to mean just that and it is so common in usage that we all use it in that sense, both in the Church and outside. The confusion lies in the fact that this is not what was meant when the terms goi and ethnos were used anciently. It is easy to confuse the two when we are studying the scriptures and speaking with each other.
    When we come to the Book of Mormon, the problem is complicated further because we believe the translation is correct, but the word Gentile cannot apply to any words which Nephi could have used. He was speaking Hebrew of 600 B.C. and the word translated as Gentiles today was goi or goyim and meant simply nation or nations and not Gentile nations as we use the term today. What is the answer then?
    Since Nephi could not have used a word equivalent to our modern meaning of Gentiles, the problem has to be with Joseph’s selection of that word. If Nephi used the word goyim then it cannot mean Gentiles, as I have explained above, because there was no such word in Hebrew that Nephi could have known at this time, which is 600 B.C. as they left Jerusalem. They are still in Arabia when he wrote this.
    The commonly accepted idea about the manner of translating the Book of Mormon is that Joseph looked into the interpreters and the original text was shown in the right lens and the translation in the left. This would mean that the exact words were displayed in the left lens and therefore, there could be no error in any of the words. This cannot be the case because we find many things such as 1 Nephi 10:16 “And all these things of which I have spoken, was done, as my father dwelt in a tent, in the valley of Lemuel.” This is grammatically incorrect and has been changed in modern editions to “were done.” There are many such grammatical errors in the original book that show that this method could not have been the case. This means that Joseph wrote the things down in his own words and manner of speaking, so the exact words did not appear, unless the translation is being made in the translator’s head and then shown on the left lens complete with pleonasms and all other errors of speech and grammar. Oliver wrote most of the book and he was an educated man, a lawyer and teacher. The question then is why he did not correct these obvious and simple grammatical errors? If we have these grammatical errors abounding, it is possible and very probable that Joseph inserted this word Gentile according to his understanding instead of the correct word or words “nation” or “foreign nations” which would have eliminated the confusion.
    All the following are from 1 Nephi. The first reference is in 10:11 where he speaks of the coming of the Savior and the preaching of the gospel to the Jews. “…and after he had been slain he should rise from the dead, and should make himself manifest, by the Holy Ghost, unto the Gentiles.” If we change this word to “nations” then it reads, “…make himself manifest, by the Holy Ghost, unto the nations” or “unto the other nations” which is sometimes the meaning in Hebrew. This is no doubt what Nephi said.
    He continues this in 10:13 where he says the house of Israel would be scattered and gathered together again, …”after the Gentiles had received the fullness of the Gospel,…” Again, we can substitute the words “after the other nations had received the fullness of the Gospel,…” and it makes perfect sense, and this is what Nephi means. The Jews eventually rejected the gospel and it was taken to the other nations; to Greece, Rome, Asia Minor principally where they received the fullness of the Gospel. After this, the scattered natural branches of Israel would be gathered from among the nations. The only natural branches that have been gathered from these nations is Ephraim. It was he who was hidden there (D&C 86:8–9).
    Nephi continues the discussion of this in Chapter 13 where the angel shows him nations and kingdoms. In 13:3 he says, “These are the nations and kingdoms of the Gentiles.” We understand this to obviously mean the kingdoms that are not the people of Lehi. The original line in Hebrew would say something like, “These are the lands (or nations) and kingdoms of the nations” or “These are the peoples and kingdoms of the nations” or “These are the nations and kingdoms of the other people” meaning those not of Lehi’s seed however we say it, which is what this verse means. It just says it without using the word Gentile. This sounds like double talk, but this is what it would say in Hebrew. A duck is a duck is a duck. If we remember that at that time goyim, which is the only word Nephi could have used, could only mean nation or people it becomes most obvious what he is saying. I hope it is clear that the word Gentile cannot be in the Book of Mormon.
    In 13:10, Nephi sees the other nations and the sea that “divided the Gentiles from the seed of my brethren.” If we substitute nations, it becomes “divided the nations (or other nations) from the seed of my brethren” which are the same other nations described above. Nephi keeps going and the word is the same. In 13:12 he “looked and beheld a man among the Gentiles” which becomes, “a man among the nations” and we understand this to mean among these other nations which are not of Lehi’s descendants.
    In 13:13, we get a variant. He says, “the Spirit of God… wrought upon other Gentiles…” As I said above, it can also be people rather than nations so we can say, it “wrought upon other people” and again it makes perfect sense and is correct although “nations” would still work here. In 13:14 he sees “multitudes of the Gentiles upon the land of promise.” He is seeing “other people” or “multitudes of the other nations” here on this land but who are not of his seed, the Lamanites. The Spirit of God is upon these Gentiles (other people) and they prosper in the land. The Gentiles (people) who had gone out of captivity (13:16) were attacked by their mother Gentiles (nation) (13:17) and they fought but God delivered the Gentiles (people) who had gone out of captivity. This is the American Revolution, as everybody knows.
    I would like to look at Chapter 15 briefly. In this chapter we have another reference to the parable of the olive tree. I have commented on this recently in the Questions column referring to the modern version of the olive grove in D&C 101. The olive tree is a very common metaphor for the house of Israel. It is always a metaphor for the house of Israel or whatever part of Israel happens to be here at the time, but it is always legitimate Israel as far as I have ever read about it. In 15:13, Nephi is speaking about the olive tree and the grafting in of the natural branches. He says this will come about through the “fullness of the Gentiles.” We can paraphrase this as “fullness of the other nations.” This means, as he explains, that in the last days, the fullness of the gospel will come to the other people, not the Lamanites, but the people among whom Israel is scattered. It will come specifically to Israel who is the only people who accept the gospel and who are being gathered to this promised land. The fullness of the gospel then comes to the Lamanites by these people, the fullness of the nations, who is Israel, specifically Ephraim or the Church scattered among these other nations. The Church is the only people or nation that has the fullness of the gospel and they are still scattered in many nations. But the gospel goes to the Lamanites from the Church, which is Ephraim who is gathered out from these many nations, and the Lamanites are then grafted into the true natural olive tree, which is the Church, hence Israel. The Church is not Gentiles in the modern sense, but rather the true olive tree (15:16). The Lamanites are not being grafted into the Jews or into any other people. They are being brought into the part of restored Israel that has the fullness of the gospel, which is Ephraim, their cousins. When they are grafted in, they know they are of the house of Israel.
    Lehi said this would happen after the remnant of the Lamanites were scattered by the coming people or other nations, meaning in our time. This was the restoration of the gospel and the gospel is now being taken to the remnant of the seed of Lehi. He repeats this in 15:17 in part. The gospel will go to the Lamanites after these nations scatter the Lamanites, which happened principally in the Spanish conquest in South America where the bulk of the Lamanites were located. Some of them scattered northward and eastward during this time. The gospel was then given to these other nations, but as we read, it was specifically to Israel, namely Ephraim, who is among these nations, and not to non-Israelites per se. He shows his power, or his priesthood and revelations to the Church because the Jews, who could have had the gospel, rejected it. He says, “or of the house of Israel.” This is not exactly correct, but at that time, when the Savior came, the only tribe of Israel that was around was the Jews with some Levites and Benjamites among them. They constituted the house of Israel at that time. But in the latter days, as the Lord has made clear, the gospel was given to Ephraim who had been scattered among the nations.
    We can now look at the Title Page of the Book of Mormon where the first use of Gentile occurs. This was written by Moroni and Joseph says it was on the lower left side of the last page or leaf of the plates. Since in Hebrew they write from right to left, this would be the very last thing on the plates. Moroni says that he sealed them by his own hand “to come forth in due time by way of the Gentile–” Moroni could not have used such a word because there was no such word in Hebrew, unless they had originated one, which is doubtful. There is simply no way he could have used this word. He would have also used goi or goyim, just as in 1 Nephi. This is easy to interpret now because we know that goi, the singular form, means people since it is a mass noun also. So we can read it as “Sealed… to come forth in due time by way of the other people—the interpretation thereof by the gift of God.” The other people are the same ones Nephi described and which I quoted above. At the end of the page, he writes, “And now, if there are faults they are the mistakes of men;…” While we can accept that the Book of Mormon is the most nearly correct of all books, as Joseph said at that time, there are mistakes, as Moroni is allowing here, and as we have seen. The use of this word Gentiles is one of them. I believe that Joseph went back and seeing all the repetitions of the word nation or nations, he changed it to Gentiles to conform to the current meaning but making the passages incorrect in the sense they were originally rendered in Hebrew, using a word that was not in existence in Hebrew and that none of the Book of Mormon writers could have known.
    Some have said that the Lord used this word in the Book of Mormon and he would have known what it meant. Let us take a few minutes and look at the use of this term in 3 Nephi. In the first place where he uses it, he is explaining the other sheep. In 15:22-23 he says that those who heard him thought he was speaking of the Gentiles “For they understood not that the Gentiles should be converted by their preaching. …and they understood me not that the Gentiles should not at any time hear my voice—that I should not manifest myself unto them save it were by the Holy Ghost.”
    In this discourse, the Savior is using a word which would have to be goyim since it is the only Hebrew word that existed. Since this was the only word that existed, it had to be understood in the context of the statement. In this case, the Lord is referring to the other nations from the house of Israel, because he defines it later in 16:9. We can then substitute the correct terms. He is telling his disciples that he has other sheep, meaning believers and followers and he must go and visit them. The disciples think he is speaking of the “other nations” which meant those nations outside of Judah. This is the meaning of Gentiles today, however, so they thought he meant this, but the term is simply “nations” and they understood from the context “other nations” meaning outside Judah.
    The Lord tells the Nephites that they are the other sheep. They are both Israelites and Christians. He then tells them that the “nations” (goyim) would not at any time hear his voice or see him except through the Holy Ghost. This means the other nations outside Israel would not see him or hear him personally. If Ephraim is included among the Gentiles, then this statement is not true, because the Savior appeared in person to Ephraim many times and spoke directly to the Church, and he was seen not only by Joseph, but by others. Therefore either the Savior is saying something which is not true, which is not possible, or Ephraim is not included among the Gentiles or the nations to whom he is referring. He explains this further.
    In the next chapter, the Lord continues explaining. In 16:4 he says that these writings of the Nephites will be made known to the remnant of Israel who is scattered among the nations. Through the fullness of the Gentiles, which we discussed above, meaning the fullness of the nations, referring to the time when the scattered of Israel, specifically Ephraim, will be gathered from these nations, these records will be made known. This is the gathering and restoration of Ephraim. When Ephraim was gathered or identified among all the nations, the fullness of the nations, the Lord restored his Church and gave it the Book of Mormon, this sacred record. He is speaking specifically of the scattered of Israel from the “other nations” called Gentiles here.
    In 16:5, the Lord says he will gather them from all the earth and that will be the beginning of the fulfillment of the covenant he made with the house of Israel.
    In 16:6, he says the Gentiles are blessed because of their belief in him. Most of the countries of Europe were Christians at that time and he is saying because they believe in him, they are blessed. He says the Holy Ghost witnesses to them of him, so we know that these non-Israelite Christians have testimonies given them by the Holy Ghost. We know he is speaking of “Gentile” or non Israelite Christians because he contrasts them in 16:7. The non-Israelite Christians believe in him, but the house of Israel does not believe. The fullness of the truth will come to the other nations in the last days along with “these things” meaning this record.
    The Lord goes on speaking of the nations (Gentiles) who have scattered the Lamanites and persecuted the true Israelites on this land. This refers both to the Lamanites and Ephraim who, when the Church was restored, was persecuted and even driven from this land at that time. Utah was not part of the United States when the journey to these valleys began. So the Lord is referring to both parts of Joseph who are upon this land. He differentiates them from “Gentiles” who are the non-Israelites or same nations that Nephi described and called Gentiles. Ephraim, the Church, is not included in this term. Here the Lord clearly means other nations apart from Israel. This is obvious and is most likely the reason Joseph used this term. The Lord makes this meaning clear in 16:13. He says that “if the “nations” (Gentiles) will repent and return unto me… they shall be numbered among my people, O house of Israel.” They will be adopted into the house of Israel, in other words. Otherwise, he will allow the people of the house of Israel to go among them and tread them down (16:14).
    The Savior speaks more of this in 3 Nephi 20-29 and mentions the “Gentiles” but with the same meanings we have discussed above. Moroni also reiterates much of what Nephi and the Lord have said as he finishes his writings and closes the book.
    Once we understand what this word really means and how it is used, any confusion disappears from these ancient writings. Most of the places where it is translated “Gentiles” in the scriptures, it is incorrect as I have shown. But in modern times, it has become a convenient word to distinguish between Israelites and non-Israelites because we have no other word for non-Israelites. It is therefore a very useful word and I use it in my commentaries when I want to use it in the current sense. We just have to be careful that it is used and understood correctly. As I pointed out, sometimes it can mean non-Israelite nations in the scriptures but usually it merely means people, nations or other nations. We then have to figure out from the context in which sense it is being used. In most cases, the correct word is nations.
    The main point of all this is to show that Ephraim, the Church today, is not being referred to in any of these scriptures in the Book of Mormon that refer to Gentiles in the sense we use it today. Ephraimites are not Gentiles in the modern sense. They are of the literal blood of the house of Israel, as the Lord has indicated. In D&C 64:35–36, he explains that the rebellious of Ephraim, the Church, will be plucked out because they are not of the blood of Ephraim, which by inference, the obedient and faithful are.
    In D&C 86:8–10 the Lord explains that the priesthood is the birthright of Ephraim, the Church, the only ones to whom he is speaking. It is their birthright through the lineage of our fathers and we are lawful heirs “according to the flesh.” This is the blessing pronounced upon Ephraim and the right to that priesthood has come down through that authorized lineage to Ephraim, the Church, today. In verse 9, he says that Ephraim has been hidden from the world but the lineage has been preserved. This is a most important statement for us and should dispel the heretical ideas that are taught and written about in books and articles which try to show that Ephraim is really a Gentile people that is adopted into the house of Israel. This is pure false doctrine and no person who reads this Book of Mormon should accept this falsehood. I hope this article has helped to explain the correct meaning of this term.

  21. Robert Sinclair

    May I suggest doing as is written in the Book of Joel, to openly weep and howl, and sound the alarm, and blow the trumpet in Zion, of the perversion of ewuity and loftiness in the vineyard, making it stripped and barren of equity, that perhaps the old men, and administers of the law, and husbandmen of the vineyard, might give ear, and atone, and return to keep the “United Order” “All things common” “Equal in your temporal things” “Fullness of the Gospel” “The Feast of Fat Things well prepared and imparted” “Oil in their lamps” “The Bride out of the closet”, that the Bridegroom may come forth of his chamber, saying “Here I am”, the band of wickedness of inequality undone, the heavy burdens lifted, the yokes broken off the backs of the poor, the oppressed in poverty of the church set free, that the poor among us, are poor no more, all have houses and meat in their houses, imparted unto them of the storehouse of God.♡

  22. Owyhee carpenter

    Owyhee cowboy – I thought I was the only one in the Owyhees who thinks this way. I have been flipflopping on whether to continue on in church, enduring the same chosen tepid lessons over and over again in order to maybe find one more person who feels the same way. My email is divine1gravity@gmail.com. I would love to commiserate with you if you feel so inclined.

  23. Phil Redd

    It’s interesting to me you say the spirit isn’t there when reading or listening to Denver’s words. If what you are searching for is a leader then of course you won’t recognize truth when you learn it. If your focus is on Christ, you may, however, have a different opinion of what Denver shares because it always expounds scripture and points to Christ. Furthermore, the Spirit is not ‘felt’ and has no other effect but giving pure intelligence and on the rare occasion comes a “burning in your bosom” when praying about truth. He, Denver, (whether you want to argue this point or not) has been in the Lord’s presence and is a bonafide witness in my opinion of our Savior and seeks not but to bring others to know Him. Denver seeks to exonerate Joseph Smith because Joseph certainly opened the dispensation in which Zion could come. He was the Lord’s called and anointed servant and seer, but failed in bringing Zion because that was not the sum of the work he was called to do:

    4 Verily, I say unto you that ye are chosen out of the world to declare my gospel with the sound of rejoicing, as with the voice of a trump.
    5 Lift up your hearts and be glad, for I am in your midst, and am your advocate with the Father; and it is his good will to give you the kingdom.
    6 And, as it is written—Whatsoever ye shall ask in faith, being united in prayer according to my command, ye shall receive.
    7 And ye are called to bring to pass the gathering of mine elect; for mine elect hear my voice and harden not their hearts;
    D&C 29:4–7

    And from the Title Page of the B of M:

    …An abridgment taken from the Book of Ether also, which is a record of the people of Jared, who were scattered at the time the Lord confounded the language of the people, when they were building a tower to get to heaven—Which is to show unto the remnant of the House of Israel what great things the Lord hath done for their fathers; and that they may know the covenants of the Lord, that they are not cast off forever—And also to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God, manifesting himself unto all nations…
    Introduction, Title Page

    Joseph was called to “gather (the Lord’s) elect” by bringing forth the B of M, translating other important scripture and preaching to all who would hear the Lord’s voice. Of course, he know Zion would come and he sought to work to that end. Denver states he was called to finish the work Joseph was called to do–to restore knowledge lost–to preserve the restoration that must occur before the second coming.

    1 But behold, there shall be many—at that day when I shall proceed to do a marvelous work among them, that I may remember my covenants which I have made unto the children of men, that I may set my hand again the second time to recover my people, which are of the house of Israel;
    2 Nephi 29:1

    Denver has claimed he is sent as a witness. Take it or leave it:

    I am sent as another witness to testify He will return. Signs have been, and are being given both in the heavens and on earth. Today there are “false Christs, and false prophets,” who are doing their work “that, if possible, they shall deceive the very elect.” (JS-Matt. 1:22.) The elect are only protected “according to the covenant.” (JS-Matt. 1:20, 22.) He has authorized baptism as His own covenant to preserve all who receive it. I have seen His return and I know this newly offered baptism will be respected at His return by those who will return with Him. Baptism is offered as a covenant between you and the Lord. There are no institutional demands made upon you as a result of receiving the ordinance. It is an invitation to renew your relationship with Christ and take an act of faith to show Him you keep Him in your heart.
    denversnuffer.com, Come Unto Christ, December 29, 2015 (read the whole post for greater context)

  24. Phil Redd

    You said about Denver Snuffer:
    He wants to “preserve” the Restoration… But there’s nothing to preserve! The fullness of the priesthood/gospel has been lost from the earth. He claims to have had his calling and election made sure– but this is impossible. The fullness of the priesthood– to receive the second comforter– is no longer on the earth.

    Let me ask you then do John the Beloved and the Three Nephite disciples who tarry with us on the earth, not have the fullness of the priesthood i.e. including sealing power? Is it possible you are limiting God the Father’s ability to do His work of salvation among us? Do you not think Christ can appear to whomever He will according to His liking? The contradiction is that the very definition of “elect” is to be sealed up to eternal life, having at least heard the Lord’s voice to receive such a promise (Christ has the fullness and one does not have to have the fullness of the priesthood to receive Him!). But, sadly covenants can be broken–by us. If you are claiming to be elect and you are beyond being deceived than I say beware of pride, Brother.

    Regarding Denver Snuffer:
    Joseph Smith was called to “gather (the Lord’s) elect” by bringing forth the B of M, translating other important scripture and preaching to all who would hear the Lord’s voice. Of course, he knew Zion would come and he sought to work to that end. Denver states he was called to finish the work Joseph was called to do–to restore knowledge lost–to preserve the restoration that must occur before the second coming.

    1 But behold, there shall be many—at that day when I shall proceed to do a marvelous work among them, that I may remember my covenants which I have made unto the children of men, that I may SET MY HAND AGAIN THE SECOND TIME to recover my people, which are of the house of Israel;
    2 Nephi 29:1 (emphasis added)

    Denver has claimed he is sent as a witness.

    I am sent as another witness to testify He will return. Signs have been, and are being given both in the heavens and on earth. Today there are “false Christs, and false prophets,” who are doing their work “that, if possible, they shall deceive the very elect.” (JS-Matt. 1:22.) The elect are only protected “according to the covenant.” (JS-Matt. 1:20, 22.) He has authorized baptism as His own covenant to preserve all who receive it. I have seen His return and I know this newly offered baptism will be respected at His return by those who will return with Him. Baptism is offered as a covenant between you and the Lord. There are no institutional demands made upon you as a result of receiving the ordinance. It is an invitation to renew your relationship with Christ and take an act of faith to show Him you keep Him in your heart.
    denversnuffer.com, Come Unto Christ, December 29, 2015 (read the whole post for greater context)

    I encourage you to consider his message, if it is or is not a prophetic message aimed at bringing us all to repentance and turning us back to the Lord God of Israel. Look at the staff, it really is that simple. Yet most of us tend to look beyond the mark.

    I am a fellow believer and follower of Christ. The LDS church is not the church Joseph restored. We must prepare ourselves and our families for the day He comes again. God speed!

  25. Phil Redd

    Read Denver Snuffer’s post from Dec 29. “Coming to Christ” on denversnuffer.com. In that he links to a fellowship finder. This is so important that we fellowship with likeminded individuals and families. Since my wife and I were thrown out for our beliefs, fellowshipping with other of like mind has been helpful for us and for our children. Oh and the persecution that comes from your decision to follow Christ does not go unnoticed by God. Reread the sermon on the mount in Matthew 5 and in 3 Nephi 12.

  26. Ahuizotl

    “He, Denver, (whether you want to argue this point or not) has been in the Lord’s presence and is a bonafide witness in my opinion of our Savior and seeks not but to bring others to know Him.”

    Why would you give me your opinion on such an important matter? Do you not have a witness of your own?

    Joseph Smith helped many to see the Savior. How many has Denver helped?

  27. Phil Redd

    Good question! I have a witness that he has been in the Lords presence. And yes, Denver has helped many have that same experience. I am currently doing as Denver has written and spoken and feel that experience will come with time and as I get rid of my unbelief. It will happen on the Lords time, but He, the Lord, has assured me by His voice that it will happen. Denver is not out to get followers. He points people to Christ.

  28. Phil Redd

    If I may reply to your question, I also believe as AB that there is one among us called as a servant. Since you asked I will tell you it’s Denver Snuffer, but for the record he does not want publicity or any type of following other than for us to consider and then to heed his message. I copied part of my reply to a respondent to the above post here:

    Regarding Denver Snuffer:
    Joseph Smith was called to “gather (the Lord’s) elect” by bringing forth the B of M, translating other important scripture and preaching to all who would hear the Lord’s voice. Of course, he knew Zion would come and he sought to work to that end. Denver states he was called to finish the work Joseph was called to do–to restore knowledge lost–to preserve the restoration that must occur before the second coming.

    1 But behold, there shall be many—at that day when I shall proceed to do a marvelous work among them, that I may remember my covenants which I have made unto the children of men, that I may SET MY HAND AGAIN THE SECOND TIME to recover my people, which are of the house of Israel;
    2 Nephi 29:1 (emphasis added)

    Denver has claimed he is sent as a witness.

    I am sent as another witness to testify He will return. Signs have been, and are being given both in the heavens and on earth. Today there are “false Christs, and false prophets,” who are doing their work “that, if possible, they shall deceive the very elect.” (JS-Matt. 1:22.) The elect are only protected “according to the covenant.” (JS-Matt. 1:20, 22.) He has authorized baptism as His own covenant to preserve all who receive it. I have seen His return and I know this newly offered baptism will be respected at His return by those who will return with Him. Baptism is offered as a covenant between you and the Lord. There are no institutional demands made upon you as a result of receiving the ordinance. It is an invitation to renew your relationship with Christ and take an act of faith to show Him you keep Him in your heart.
    denversnuffer.com, Come Unto Christ, December 29, 2015 (read the whole post for greater context)

    I encourage you to consider his message, if it is or is not a prophetic message aimed at bringing us all to repentance and turning us back to the Lord God of Israel.

    I am a fellow believer and follower of Christ. The LDS church is not the church Joseph restored. We must prepare ourselves and our families for the day He comes again. God speed!

  29. ahuizotl


    I know you’re writing for Denver here and he’s not able to defend himself here, but when you write:

    “for the record he does not want publicity or any type of following other than for us to consider and then to heed his message.”

    This reminds me a lot of the wizard in the Wizard of Oz when he says, “Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. The Great Oz has spoken.”

    In other words, Denver is saying: “I’ve seen Christ and I know the LDS church that many of you are members of is not true. But don’t follow me I don’t want the publicity. Just heed my message. I have spoken.”

    Phil, what is the message he wants us to heed?

  30. LDS Anarchist

    Thanks for responding, Phil, but I was asking Anonymous Bishop. Everyone so far replying to this post has assumed that this servant AB has referred to is Denver Snuffer. But, that may not be who AB was referring to, hence my direct question. There are plenty of people that have popped up who claim to be this or that servant of God. See, for example:

    Other prophets and their scriptures

    Re: Snuffer, see the following post:

    Surely the Lord God will do nothing, until he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

    Finally, check out this post, and my follow-up comments to it, which can be considered as a measuring stick about anyone professing, from 2014 onward, to be a servant sent of the Lord:

    “Keep your mouth shut and hold your tongue!” (Leave the leadership alone.)

  31. Rocky

    What you and others seem to be saying is that Denver Sniffer is a prophet sent from God. Is that what you are saying? If you are I need to remind you that Isaiah says very clearly that the prophets are blind and dumb. They are not sent from him. Additionally the D&C says very clearly that the only person that the Lord can speak to is the president of the Church. If he isn’t hearing and seeing then there is no revelation that can be given. All revelation will come through Monson because he holds the keys of the presidency right now. He is an apostate as AB has pointed out. What that means is that Denver cannot be a prophet. He is not the servant the Lord has sent. He can’t be and the scriptures are clear about that.

    There is someone out there however that the Lord has prepared to put the pieces back together again. You all here know who that person is because he has been around since the time of Christ. His name is John the Beloved. That’s right – he is a translated being and is here on earth somewhere. The fact that he isn’t seen and testified by the brethren is another indication of the apostasy. Nevertheless John is the one who will put it all back together and reorganize things when the end comes which is real real soon. He hasn’t revealed himself yet but soon. I think he is waiting or has waited until the Church is fully ripe in iniquity. The homosexual thing I’m sure is the last straw as well as the acceptance of abortion in the Church.

    Lord continues to operate on the basis of free agency. I had a Stake leader that told me that these guys can’t lead me astray or God would take them away. I told him that was crap that it would violate free agency. He didn’t destroy king Noah anciently right off the bat did He.

    Anyway, Denver isn’t a prophet. He might be a good person but he doesn’t have the answers. The answers can only be found at this time in the scriptures as to what we are to do. Rocky

  32. Robert Sinclair

    The heads of Jacob of Israel of Ephraim, are to not have a vision or divine, there is to be “no” answer of God, because of the perversion of equity, as it is written in Micah 3, you are to listen to the Lord, Isaiah 48:17–18, Joseph Smith 2:40 & Acts 3:22–23, and hearken not unto these prophets, for they only make you vain, see Jeremiah 23:16–20, and in the Latter days you will consider this perfectly, all you need do, is ask two simple questions, What hath the LORD answered thee? and, What hath the LORD spoken, see Jeremiah 23:37. The LORD has returned to his place, after giving Joseph Smith the greater things of his law but their willingly walking away, read the entire book of Hosea, who was commanded to marry a wife of whoredoms, for this is what Ephraim would do, to go and build temples, rather than have “No poor aming them” and “Be equal in their temporal things” “all things in common” living a “United Order” they were to live, the “Fullness of the gospel” “The celestial law”, but have forsaken it.

    Even Oliver Cowdery had told all the Apostles not one of them had their ordinations, full and complete, until Jesus Christ had come and laid his hand upon them one by one, and spoken to each one of them face to face, and Oliver would know, having been instructed by Peter, James and John who had set apart and ordained Joseph Smith and himself, later in life lamenting that both he and Joseph had gone after the things of this world, and Joseph in D&C 105:11, also saying the elders needed to still be endowed with power from on high for Zion to be redeemed. This will not happen until the wealth of the church is distributed among the members as was done by Peter and the Twelve, after which they were endowed with power from on high, Peter leaving, healing the crippled from birth and raising the dead, which thing before he could not do. The leaders need to atone and acknowledge this offence against equity, as is written in the Book of Joel, and be ashamed, to look upon the vineyard and see no equal fruit, but even the trees, stripped of their bark the branches bare, and the fields and harvest perished. “If they fullfill Hosea 14:8 and Joel 2:16, and bring his bride out of the closet, loose the bands of wickedness of inequality, and undo the heavy burdens of the poor, and break every yoke, setting these poor of the church free of poverty, with covenants and deeds D&C 42:30, to houses and lands, of stewardships, sufficient for their wants and needs, and meat in their houses, that their may be “meat in mine house”, from the tithes and offerings, as a “Feast of Fat Things” for the poor, the LORD has then promised to come to them then, saying “Here I am”.

    Good for the House of Ephraim, to hearken only to God, and their Savior, Jesus Christ, become endowed with power from on high, and then take the “One Stick” unto the House of Judah, to fullfill Ezekiel 37:15–23, where both houses shall forsake their idols and their detestable things, and together serve God, confounded no more, on how to treat the poor.♡

  33. Ahuizotl


    You’re not scriputally correct in your assumptions of who the Lord can or cannot speak through.

    Samuel the Lamanites came to the Nephites. He wasn’t their prophet. Nephi was. When they couldn’t kill him with their stones and arrows, where did they go to get baptized? To Nephi, not Samuel.

    As for President Monson holding the keys to the presidency. Where did he get those keys? If you study church history, you’d be hard pressed to see where any of the current 15 have received them in a lineal fashion.

  34. Rocky


    The scripture I was referring to is found in D&C 43:1–7. In these verses the Lord tells the Prophet Joseph Smith that there will only be one person on earth who will receive revelation at a time. The reason for this is because we have the same situation today of people running around telling everybody that they have seen Christ and are prophets and they are the way. Monson isn’t a prophet and everybody if they take off the blinders can see that. He doesn’t receive revelation at all. Okay then, now what, Is Denver then the appointed one to receive revelation. The answer according to D&C 43 is NO. He can’t be one because the Lord set it up in the last days that only one person can have that gift. If they are wicked the Lord simply stops talking which he has done and which Isaiah tells us he has stopped talking.

    Soon everything will change however and this can be found in Isaiah as to what is going to happen. The Lord is going to bring a 3 fold calamity against the Church and nation. This is also spoken of in Ezekiel. Anyway, he is going to bring famine, pestilence, and captivity and destroy the Church. There are those who will survive however and that is also spoken of in Isaiah. They will be the 144,000, wives and children. That is the righteous remnant that will survive because they see the apostasy and don’t sustain the wickedness that is going on.

    So if you are running after all of these members who claim they know what we are supposed to do I would suggest that according to the scriptures they are not who they say they are. You were told 10 times in the BOM to read Isaiah. That is where the answer is found. He tells us what we are to do to survive. He says very clearly that the prophets aren’t receiving revelation:

    Isaiah 29:10 The Lord has poured out on you a spirit of deep sleep: he has shut YOUR EYES the prophets; he has covered YOUR HEADS, the seers.

    If Denver is claiming revelation then his eyes and head(although he isn’t head of anything) has been covered. That is all I’m saying and it’s clear in the scriptures.

    After the calamity hits soon the Church will be reorganized by John the Beloved. There are plenty of scripture in Isaiah that speak about him. He is even named if you know what to look for.


  35. ahuizotl

    Thank you Rocky for the clarification.

    As for what Isaiah, Nephi and Mormon taught about the current state of the church, I think most of us on this blog see it pretty clearly.

    What I’m not certain about is the time line.

    Will there be a gathering first before the tribulation?

    Isaiah talks about the stakes of Zion being a defense and refuse from the storm. (See D&C 115:5–6; Isa. 60:1–3).

    Joseph even alluded to it in D&C 77.

    11 Q. What are we to understand by sealing the one hundred and forty-four thousand, out of all the tribes of Israel—twelve thousand out of every tribe?

    A. We are to understand that those who are sealed are high priests, ordained unto the holy order of God, to administer the everlasting gospel; for they are they who are ordained OUT OF every nation, kindred, tongue, and people, by the angels to whom is given power over the nations of the earth, to BRING AS MANY AS WILL COME to the church of the Firstborn.

    Do share. Who does Isaiah refer to as John the Beloved?

  36. Phil Redd

    Yep, he’s Denver the great and terrible! I think your argument here is unfounded and weak because you haven’t read or studied Denver’s words to know what he has himself said. When Moroni appeared to Joseph, did he expect Joseph to follow him? When the angel came to King Benjamin, did he want the king to follow him? When Abinadi came to King Noah’s court did he want them to follow him? They brought messages, messages to be heeded. Angels are not just those beyond the veil and Denver has a message we need to pay attention to.

  37. anonymous

    blair, i so appreciate this comment. as much for the content as the tone. i am grateful for a temperate example that i can look to emulate.

  38. anonymous

    dave, i found so much to enjoy in your comment. i appreciate so much what you say about his heart. i love the idea that people’s behaviors have to be considered against their action, intention, and nature. and though we see the action of so many, it is for so few that we get to see their nature. and i appreciate deeply that you know his because it gives such a great witness and weight to the poster’s message.

    i was too young or perhaps too self-involved to have a good memory of you and have not known the poster nearly as long or as closely as you have but i am well acquainted with his brotherly love for you. i know that he harbors guilt over any awkwardness he contributed to your journey as you recognized the same deep faults he sees now. i know he has sincere hope that he has not for you inseparably conflated together the same judgement and feelings for the church and the gospel. he loves you and loves the gospel and wants you to enjoy from the fruit that he sees. above all, i want to say for him if he’d let me, that you are a very important part of who he is and his life, and he loves you sincerely. as i am sure you already know.

    we do have an uncommon advantage to know that the posts are a contradiction to the nature of the poster in that he loves joy and peace and harmony. and the confusion and frustration and mourning that undertones each of his posts belies a great turmoil that rages inside. others may not know that he is not confrontational, and that he is genuine, devoted, selfless and humble; even with all the gifts he has been given. they don’t have the advantage of knowing his true nature. but i hope – as i believe you do also – that they may hear the mourning in his voice and the warning in his cries. that his nature may come through with weight in the undercurrent of his words.

    like others who have posted here, i am not quite there on denver. i don’t know that he isn’t who others have testified that he is. i don’t know that he is. i know that i don’t know a whole lot so a whole lot is possible. i do believe in Christ. i’m working to know better what that means. to make sure that i do love Him. that i understand how best do that.

    but i do find a great deal of joy in this post particularly. i feel like this post states clearly what for so long the poster has skirted. and i rejoice in it for the message of warning. but i mostly rejoice in it for a dear friend of mine (of ours) who i feel has found clarity. even if that clarity has some tumult. i rejoice with anonymous bishop in his declaration.

    and i throw my voice behind his in part of his warning message. find a religion that is your own. make your religion your own. even if it is in the lds church. please, don’t repeat the words of the leaders. make the words your words if you want to testify of Christ with them. and if they have power then i’d suggest that you don’t need the “-Elder Blahblahblah” to enable it. stack all things together and ask yourself how they fare holistically. read the screwtape letters humbly and quietly to yourself and see how you may resemble the subject. please, please, please, make your religion your own and be personally responsible for it. it is my sincere belief that you are responsible whether you lay claim on it or not. and if it helps you then i’ll tell you that brigham young said the same thing.

    i hope for peace among those who seek HIm. i hope that as we each find our way, that we may do it with boldness, with meekness, and without contention. if some of you have found something great outside the church then compel us with a witness that radiates in your love, longsuffering, patience, and humility. if you are already there, i cheer for you. i am not jealous. i am so happy for you. truly. i find hope in your witness that communion is achievable. i hope you can be happy for me and others in the journey that we are now on. i am suspicious that the journey may be something we look back on with great fondness.

    and to that end, in closing i want to say to you dave, enjoy your journey. even in the darkest hours i hope that you find value and hope and peace. i have seen a great deal of darkness in my life. and much of the battle with darkness is inside myself. and though i don’t relish in that darkness i do relish in the struggle and the small triumphs. i hope the same joy for you my friend. though i don’t remember you well i feel compelled to love you because someone i love so much, loves you so much.

  39. Rocky

    I only found this blog a month or so ago and I have been very happy to see that there are others who can see clearly the apostasy. The question though we need to ask is can the Church be changed by those of us who can see the corruption in the Church. The answer is no, it cannot be changed and the Protestants found that out to be the case at the time of Martin Luther. The Lord is all powerful though and He will take care of the situation. You likely remember from the BOM that restorations last only about 200 years before they all end up in apostasy unless something happens. We didn’t quite get to 200 years but that is irrelevant right now. What do we do about it? The answer is found in Isaiah and it’s to recognize that there is an apostasy and not sustain those who are leading the people into apostasy. Repent of those things that they are doing that are wrong of course. Which are idolatry (images of Christ are forbidden), injustice, Sabbath breaking, abortion, acceptance of homosexuality. Those are a few of things Isaiah specifically are mentioned but ignored by this apostate Church. In fact, most of it is promoted. The other thing is to get food storage and simply wait. It’s hard to wait because we see things going downhill rapidly and we are appalled at the apostasy.

    Okay, I’ll get off that subject because you know where I’m coming from. The other things you mentioned is the timeline. The timeline although difficult to figure out is given in the scriptures. The very best and in fact only books that I can recommend are those written by Dr. Robert Smith. Scriptures of the Last days is the best commentary on Isaiah that exists. It lays out verse by the meaning of Isaiah. He has also written a commentary on Ezekiel, Jeremiah, the 12 prophets (Hosea-Malachi), Revelations, Daniel, BOM commentary, D&C commentary, New Testament commentary and has a commentary on Genesis and Exodus. I noticed the other day that his book Last Days unsealed was selling for over $300 on Amazon. Since then I noticed the price has dropped considerably. I had seen it as high as $1,000 dollars on Amazon. I have 3 copies of it. The book is a great overview of the events of the lastdays.

    Let me answer the best I can your questions. First off how can a Church that has lapsed into apostasy be a defense against any storm? Those are misinterpretations of those scriptures. Let me quote from the new translation of Isaiah 60:1–3 by A. Gileadi. Dr. Smith has also provided a corrected translation.

    Isaiah 60:1–3

    1. Arise, Shine, your light has dawned; the glory of the Lord has risen upon you!
    2. Although darkness covers the earth, and a thick mist the people, upon you the Lord will shine; over you his glory shall be visible.
    3. Nations will come to your light, their rulers to the brightness of your dawn.

    I’ll add a few more verses

    4. Lift up your eyes and look about you! They have all assembled to come to you: your sons shall arrive from afar; your daughters shall return to your side.
    5. Then, when you see it, your face will light up, your heart swell with awe: the multitude of the Sea shall resort to you; a host of nations shall enter you.

    To be short in writing because a few pages could be written about these verses (they are fully explained in Scriptures of the Last Days). They are talking about the person who does the gathering of the entire house of Israel or 12 tribes who is John the beloved. I’ll show you that in a minute. The last 7 years of history that you eluded to is divided into 2 parts. The 1st part is called the tribulation and lasts 3-1/2 years. The great tyrant of Revelation or King of Assyria of Isaiah is the guy that gains control over the entire earth during this 3-1/2 year period. The second half is called the Judgment and lasts 3-1/2 years. This is described in detail in Revelation what is going to happen. The 10 tribes are united with Ephraim at the end of the tribulation. This is what these verses are talking about. It is one of the most awe inspiring scriptures of Isaiah in my opinion. I love to read it.

    Section 115 is still future and once you understand the metaphors you realize that this is the same thing as Isaiah 60. You recognized that fact already. It says in the D&C that Zion shall not be moved. In other words Independence Missouri is still the place of gathering. The stakes of Zion are not the current stakes because they are in apostasy. This is later when the real gathering takes place. The righteous are brought out and gathered by John. Ephraim of course is gathered first and that is the 144k that I’m referring to.

    Okay so let’s close the loop then. You quoted Isaiah 60 which is actually the gathering of the tribes of Israel. There are other scriptures in Isaiah that talk about this as well as elsewhere. According to D&C 77:14 John is the person to gather the tribes of Israel. See also more explanation in D&C 113. Isaiah 11 and D&C 113 both talk about the person who is a descendant of both Ephraim and Judah. Many have thought this was Joseph Smith. Well, Joseph doesn’t have any Judah in him. He is called an Ephraimite. Besides, his job is done and he is now dead. Dead people don’t come back and continue a mission. But there is somebody that has dual lineage and that is John the Beloved.

    A person by the name of Francis Darter figured out his lineage around the turn of the 20th century. He was a member of the Church and he figured out that John was both a descendant of Ephraim and Judah on his mother’s side. Infact, he is the cousin of Christ making him next in line to the throne of David. He is Davidic in other words. His mother Solome was the sister of Mary the mother of Christ. The scriptures do not say this directly the in a roundabout way it is there and Francis Darter figured it out. You can goggle his name and get the data if you want. His father is Zebedee who descends from Ephraim. So the person in D&C 113 is John the Beloved. The person of D&C 77 that gathers the tribes of Israel including Ephraim is John the Beloved. The person of Isaiah 60 therefore is John the Beloved. There is much more to him then what I am telling you and it is laid out in the commentary on Isaiah. Problem is the book is out of print now but there are copies out there. I have it on a CD and in file in the computer. In fact, I have all the books on my computer accept for Last Days unsealed with is an overview of everything. That one is an early work that never made it to the computer.

    This has been just a very brief overview. When will all this happen? Very soon the gathering will take place. I’m talking about the righteous who are prepared will be taken out because they have their food storage and don’t sustain these apostates who run the Church today. The fun part of all this however is that after the tribulation starts the righteous remnant will be gathered out before things really get bad. You’ve likely heard of the rapture that the Christians call it. That is only talking about the members of the Church. The 144k are gathered out during the rapture which happens in one day.

    Isaiah 57:1 The righteous disappear, and no man gives it a thought; the godly are gathered out, but no one perceives that from impending calamity the righteous are withdrawn.

    This is the so-called rapture the Christians refer to it as. The righteous are gathered before the calamity begins. Not by the Church but by the Lord. There won’t be any cities of refuge that the Church leaders set up. You have to qualify for this blessing and the qualifications are given in Isaiah.

    Well, that’s the overview and how I see it. These are exciting questions to discuss. Rocky

  40. G.azelem

    Dear Phil,

    Thanks for the response.

    Did you read my post on what the fulness of the gospel is? If not I really recommend you do.

    I understand your perspective. There was a point in time I actually did believe DS to be inspired of God. I really believed that he’d made his calling and election sure, and it was that which actually set me off on my own journey to do the same.

    Since then I realized it’s impossible until the marvelous work occurs. The whole earth is in complete apostasy preceding this. [Here’s my explanation: https://theworkofthefather.wordpress.com/2015/08/17/nephi-prophey-pt-2-they-have-all-gone-astray-save-it-be-a-few/ ]

    To answer your questions,

    No, I am not limiting God’s ability to do his work. If I were I would count that as blasphemy. God can be found by all who seek him. I do not doubt that. He’s in the details of everything. However, I’ve studied the scriptures and believe that God has made it clear when and how the fullness of the gospel operates.

    One example: D&C 88:62 Jesus says in 1832, “ye shall call upon me while I am near—”

    Notice, “while”…

    Why would God give a time limitation? Because, I postulate, there was going to be an apostasy. This fits when you understand the three watches doctrine. In the Luke JST, we learn that the Lord comes to the earth three times before the Second Coming. First in the meridian of time, again with Joseph Smith, and again when Zion is finally established.

    Good point with John the Beloved and The Three Nephites. Yes, they DO have the fulness of the priesthood. They are designated true messengers of the Father. And so they have a future mission (or current mission, if I’m being on the hopeful side that it’s literally happening as I write this) has to do with the marvelous work. (32 Yea even among the Gentiles shall there be a great and marvelous work wrought by them, before that judgment day.)

    Thanks for trying to humble me about claiming to be elect and not deceived. I certainly see why you felt that necessary to mention it. But if you’ll take a look at the post of mine I recommended, I actually make the case that currently EVERYONE on earth is deceived, EVEN the humble followers of Christ.

    Yet when the marvelous work and a wonder occurs, the elect will not be deceived. They will accept the fullness of the gospel and the true messengers of heaven. They will be restored from their lost and fallen state.

    I have a strong assurance that many many people of all faiths and religions will accept the work of the Father when it commences.


  41. KJC

    A great post, brother. I feel and empathize with your pain and dissilusionment in the “church”. As I have become more familiar with the history of the church and the lack of forthrightness by the leaders, past and present, I feel heartbroken. I’m angry at them and myself for putting my trust in the arm of man and not soley in my savior. What a hard lesson that is to learn. At this point I’m not willing to put my trust in the arm of whomever you reference in your blog. If it’s Denver Snuffer you refer to, I’ve read a book of his (Passing the Heavenly Gift) and was very impresseed. But I’m a little gun shy at this point in my journey.
    I also am struggling with my testimony of Joseph Smith. I don”t know that I had much of one in the first place because in the old days (50 years ago when I was taught by the missionaries) the lessons had a different slant to them. At any rate, I was willing to accept that Joseph was called but then became fallen after the Fanny Alger debachle. Now I’m not so sure about even that upon learning about the Peep stone in the hat translation method, his dad’s dream of the tree of life, the book of Abraham mess, the book of the Hebrews or whatever the title is, etc.
    I’m just going to keep educatiing myself, scrutinizing my sources, and plod along.
    I know the Lord will help me.

  42. Owyhee cowboy

    Need to do some more posts. Or I will send the Jehovah’s Witness to
    come whip your ass into shape???

  43. Robert Sinclair

    You want Zion redeemed, you must get as many members as possible, to request to the General Authorities, through their Stake Presidents, to finally begin the return to keep the “United Order”, of seeing “all the members”, have stewardships given, with covenants and deeds, that cannot be broken, for home and land, that “all” might have “inheritances in the lands of promise”, behinning this next coming General Conference.

    Take of the wealth of the church, and of the consecrations of it’s rich and learned, wise and noble members, to prepare this feast of fat things for the poor of the church, and begin to distribute it out, as is required by Jesus Christ.

    Start in those stakes and wards and branches, strongest, and spread out through the vineyard from there, stake by stake, ward by ward, branch by branch, until you have cared for them all.

    Strenghten the members to abide by their duty described in D&C 20:37&68-69.

    And help bring to pass, Hosea 14:8 & Joel 2:16 & Jacob 5:72–74.♡

  44. Robert Sinclair

    Remember the order of this church, to get your message through to your General Authorities, is through your Stake Presidents.
    If you would like to see Zion redeemed, you must plead to your General Authorities, through your Stake Presidents, to return to begin to establish the “United Order”, the celestial law, and fullness of the gospel, of all things common among us. This by distribution of the $billions, from the storehouse of God, and a feast of fat things, well prepared, from the rich and learned, the wise and noble of this church, branch by branch, ward by ward, and stake by stake, seeing all have their homes paid for outright, title to an inheritance, sufficient for the wants and needs, of each family that is just. Then to ask of these families, to cast into the storehouse of God, surplus they have each month, or that which they would have spent on rent, or mortage, until all in the church have sufficient for their basic needs and wants, for a home to pray and work and live from and in.

    Then once all have sufficient, this church will become one of the strongest financial families in the world, as all continue to cast into the storehouse of their surplus, with more and more, to be a light unto the world, of the great good then, that could be done, outside the church, helping others in need, not only by their example, but by the leaders joined with the members in common consent, to show unto the whole world, what living the fullness of the gospel, of Jesus Christ, can do for a people, and nation, and the whole world, to live in goodwill and peace, one with another.♡

    Zion redeemed upon this earth.♡

  45. Robert Sinclair

    Put out the call from your posts for others to so do, and ask of them to tell others.

    It is sometimes what seems by small means, that others take notice, and the seed planted, begins to grow and become stronger and pushes the head of the plant up through the soil, and into the light, where it can be seen by others, and eventually after time and being in the light, this seed planted, finally bears fruit, most precious unto the Father and LORD of the vineyard.♡

  46. Rocky

    Although the Law of Consecration is a true principle and all that jazz, it still doesn’t solve the problem of apostasy of the Church. The Church is completely corrupt now. Abortion is okay, homosexuality is acceptable (within broad limits of course), Idolatry is rampant in the Church (the proliferation of Images and statues of Christ which is forbidden), Changed temple ordinances, no revelation, blacks in the priesthood which is forbidden in the Pearl of Great Price, law of common consent is gone (You can’t vote this jackals out without being exed), gifts of the spirit are now gone. This is just the highlights, the list is quite long.

    For all intensive purposes the Church of the Lord is now dead. It no longer exists as established by God. The only thing we can do now is do as Isaiah says get our food storage, believe in the coming Davidic King who is John the Beloved and wait until the Lord corrects the apostasy. Nothing else can be done.

    I don’t believe it is even possible to live the law of consecration now given the corruption of the federal government. It will be lived at some point after the apostasy has been corrected.


  47. Robert Sinclair

    It is entirely possible to start in one corner of the vineyard, and see that branch by branch, ward by ward, stake by stake, worthy members are given homes and lands, by covenants and deeds of title, as well as just food and raiment, from liquidation of surplus assets of the storehouse of the LORD, and a call to the rich and learned, wise and noble members of the church, to assist with this feast of fat things for the poor, as written in D&C 42:30, 58:1-13, 104:1-17, that there is more than enough and to spare, to accomplish the word of God. And it will happen someday for the House of Ephraim, see Hosea 14:8, Isaiah 52:8, Jacob 5:72–74, and Ezekiel 37:15–23.♡

  48. Rocky

    The thing you are missing Robert is that the saints cannot be worthy because they are sustaining apostasy. There are no righteous saints now among any member of the Church because of apostasy. It can’t happen. You cannot sustain apostasy and be righteous. If you sustain the leaders then you sustain wickedness.

    If everybody in the Church today lived the law as you’ve outlined they will still end up in Hell because they are sustaining and upholding evil and wicked practices in the Church. Just living the law doesn’t bring salvation – it’s keeping the commandments such as not committing murder (abortion) nor sustaining those who say it’s okay. If you sustain those who say it is okay then you agree to the practice and you are therefore guilty of committing the act. Yes the day will come when it will be lived but the Church must be purged first of these evil men. That will happen soon (I hope).

    Focus on one scripture which is a prophecy of our day: 2 Nephi 28:21 And others will he pacify, and lull them away into carnal security, that they will say: All is well in Zion; yea, Zion prospereth, all is well- and thus the devil cheateth their souls, and leadeth them away carefully down to hell.

  49. Robert Sinclair

    All the heads of Ephraim and Israel need do, is acknowledge their offence, and repent and atone, with broken hearts and contrite spirits, as it is written in the scriptures, and to bring his bride finally out of the closet, and clothe her in righteousness and justice and equity, that the bridegroom may finally come forth of his chamber, saying, “Here I am”.

    This by following the instructions laid out in the book of Joel, to give ear, be ashamed at the condition of the vineyard, and pastures, and fields, that have been eaten up and perished under their watch, and atone, in all sincerity, choosing the fast chosen of the LORD in Isaiah 58, and bringing forth fruits equal and as one, as it is written, in Jacob 5:72–74, and finally fullfilling Hosea 14:8—-

    “Ephraim shall say, What have I to do anymore with idols? I have heard him, and observed him: I am like a green fir tree. From me is thy fruit found.”♡

  50. Rocky

    True enough Robert but the heads are in apostasy and won’t do that. They will be purged from the Church by the coming civil unrest and famine as prophesied in Isaiah 19:1–10. The leaders of Ephraim will all be killed as mentioned in Isaiah 3:6 and Zechariah 13:1–6. It think it’s wishful thinking that they are going to change. Reality is the Lord is going to cleanse the Church of these leaders who have lapsed into apostasy instead. Once the Church goes into apostasy it is very difficult if not impossible to do so. It is absolutely impossible for the members to reform the Church from below. It takes a true prophet to do that and there isn’t one around until John the Beloved shows up to put things right as prophesied in D&C 85:7.

    Most of the scriptures you quote are all future events after the purging – not before. Rocky

  51. Robert Sinclair

    These things are not set in stone, for Ephraim has given and offered unto them a wonderful gift of “if”, as commanded for Jesus Christ to offer from the Father, as written in 3 Nephi 16:1–13. May we fast and pray, and sound the alarm, that ear may be given, and consideration to this wonderful gift of “if”, and of the state of the vineyard, under their watch, that they may be ashamed, as written in Joel 1:11, and atone, and be spared, cying out as written in Joel 2:17, and Jacob 5:50 to spare them a little longer, that they might return, to keep all his commandments, and fullfill Hosea 14:8 & Jacob 5:72–74.♡

  52. Rocky

    I guess that’s my point too Robert is they are set in stone. The prophesies are clear that the Church goes into apostasy and is destroyed except for a small remnant. Isaiah 1:9 Had not the Lord of Hosts left us a few survivors, we should have been as Sodom or become like Gomorrah. The future of the Church is not to repent, not to change, not to establish Zion. The Lord corrects the situation and starts over again with a small remnant. The Question is however – who are the small remnant and how do you qualify for the small remnant. I’ve now quoted to you that it isn’t the leaders of the Church because they are the ones at most of the fault. The members are following along like sheep being led to the slaughter. The requirements are laid out in the scripture. It’s after the destruction that the things you talk about happen – not before. Rocky

  53. Robert Sinclair

    I have hope and faith, that “if” means “if”, and the cry “to spare”, means “to spare”, from what is promised, “if” repentance, and atonement, is not done. Enoch saved many from the destruction of the great flood, and Melchizedek’s “people had waxed strong in iniquity and abomination; yea, they had all gone astray; they were full of all manner of wickedness”

    But Melchizedek having exercised mighty faith, did help his people to repent, and bring forth fruit, meet for their repentance.

    Good to have this faith, like unto the sons of Mosiah also, and how even King Lamoni, was changed, and his people, with the labors of them that believe, and had care for their fellow children of God.♡

  54. Rocky

    I agree Robert that it would be great if the leaders or members had that kind of faith. I don’t see it however. At least not at this time. As I said the Church will be purged first

    Looking at the headlines this morning and listening to the news here in the heart of Zion tells quite a different story. The attempts to make homosexuals a protected class through legislation is apparent. The governor of the state wants to use euthanasia to murder babies in the womb before they are aborted. I guess I don’t see where your utopic ideals are found here in so-called Zion now. In fact, the Lord calls the leaders of the people leaders of Sodom and Gomorrah Isaiah 1:10. Hear the word of the Lord, O leaders of Sodom; give heed to the law of our God, you people of Gomorrah! Later of course that will change when the Church is purged of the apostates both leader and member. Rocky

  55. Robert Sinclair

    Faith needs to start somewhere, and the LORD, calls out for those to feed his lambs, and his sheep, the words they need to hear, in meekness and in loving-kindness. May we as fellow servants of the LORD, seek to so do.♡

  56. Robert

    My wife realized that long before I did and even longer internet contents were available, she has always been in tune with Spirit and could always detect false teachings. A little awhile ago we were in sacrament meeting when the Bishop got up to read a letter from the first presidency, to instruct the members how to bear testimony during sacrament meetings and what words to use and not to use, I saw my wife close her eyes in some sign of feeling uncomfortable, when we got home she told me that the Spirit clearly spoke to her mind that such message did not come from God. No one can tell how other should bear testimony, if the receive the Spirit of God they should be free to speak as the spirit directs, some one in Salt Lake do not have the right to restrict the Spirit of God. I was always the one holding on to the church traditions but as I sought to know more from God I too was directed in the same way, now I always believe in the possibility of being wrong but I am more open to the Spirit than I was ever before.

  57. iterry54

    So Robert do you still think the brethren are just nice men that are leading the Church but a little bit mistaken? Or do you believe as I do that they are wicked and evil men that are deceiving the Church? You statements are little bit contradictory in my view. You either can follow them or not. Which is it? IT

  58. Rob

    What did the Apostles of Jesus say when Jesus left them ? They FLAT OUT PROCLAIMED they had SEEN & HEARD the Lord. That is what made them “Special” above those who had not in this life, so they may BENEFIT from such Strong and Indisputable Truth. A true Apostle of Christ leaves NO ROOM for questioning the existence of God and His Presence in the Lives of those who INQUIRE.

    I proclaim this truth to EVERY member of the Church and those who are not. It is NOT casting Pearls before the unbelieving swine who do not believe this. It is an OBLIGATION & COMMANDMENT TO DO SO, in order TO WARN ALL who are about to be Judged of God, whether it be for Good or Evil.

    Our current leaders will NEVER proclaim what they have NOT seen. This is the reason for so much ambiguity…DUH….

    I have seen and stood with the Lord and PROCLAIM it to the Heavens and Back. That is what we are SUPPOSED to do when having seen and spoken with the Lord. Are we supposed to HIDE that light under a bushel of “Sacred Ambiguity” so that it becomes UNCLEAR that God still shows Himself to those who seek Him & HOARD that experience for myself ?….BS leaders and any spiritually blind member would say so.

    I may not divulge what was said between the Lord and myself, but I can SURELY be EXPECTED to let my Brothers & Sisters KNOW that I KNOW that he LIVES and I have SEEN Him ! That testimony is for Our BENEFIT.

    That “seeing” Him part, seems to elude the testimonies of our leaders who call themselves the Lord’s “Special Witnesses”. I say BARF to their false claims of “knowing” the Lord. They only know OF Him and are a million miles from KNOWING Him.

    They are the false Pharasaic Hypocrites of OUR Day. They SPEW God’s laws at us and deny the SPIRIT.

    This IS the Lord’s Church & will soon become His Kingdom on Earth under the PROPER Authority God will give to His TRUE Servants to Establish Zion…..In Time.

    It has been HIJACKED by a bunch of emasculated spiritual wimps who call themselves prophets, seers, & revelators, of WHAT?

    Soon the Lord will vent His RAGE at these Evil Hypocrites…Sons of Perdition who have done FAR WORSE than steal the Lord’s Tithes and enrich themselves at the Lord’s & Our Expense. They are WOLVES who feed off the Lord’s Flock. Especially Children. And so do most of the members follow their lead with regard to defending their false piety, and do the same as far as persecuting & ostrasizing the innocent.

    Zion is COMING ! But NOT by these spiritually incompetent IDIOTS OF EVIL DARKNESS, pretending to be God’s Light.

    Never fret our current state of affairs. Heavenly Father knows them intimately well. He has almost had ENOUGH of this GARBAGE. And I’m not speaking of the obvious things Good members normally complain about. I mean MUCH BIGGER things which ENRAGE the God of Heaven who is on the CUSP of LOWERING THE BOOM on these Satanic Worshiping Devils of the WORST KIND.

    Just as these FALSE leaders are in communion with the Governments of the World, they are soon to become the FALSE PARADIGM for the world to FOLLOW them Straight Off Satan’s CLIFF of DECEPTION, which has been CAREFULLY erected INSIDE of the Lord’s House….Just as Satan did during our preexistent dealings with him in Our Father’s House in Heaven, before being cast out to earth to REPEAT that cycle of intrusion into God’s House in the Last Days.

    If all they were guilty of was stealing the Lord’s Tithes and demand the worship of the membership, I would PRAY for their repentance. But they have done FAR WORSE than even the Nephites had done to sink to new lows during the time of Mormon & Moroni, who were told NOT to pray for their people.

    Maybe the Lord knew a little “something” about the Nephites that they didn’t…..Lamanites were BAD, but the Nephites we are told, were WORSE. And we KNOW the things the Lamanites did to incur the wrath of God on many occasions. Get It ?

    Be Happy ! For the Lord’s Divine Presence is NEAR us. HIS solution to these things is VERY SIMPLE…..He OUTPOWERS the evil of this world and will soon GRANT that Power to His Chosen Servants to Gather Israel and instruct them in the Ways of the Lord & not in the current ways of a bunch of self serving men of Greed, Hypocrisy, & Deviance from all that is sacred to God.

    The Lord will respond SUDDENLY to the cries of His True People, when Satan enters mortality & seats himself in the Temple of God and PRETENDS to be God and begins the REAL persecution of the Saints that kills many of them.

    He will be a VERY FAMILAR face to Mormons and many people around the world who have come to know & worship him when he was here before he left, & is soon to return. He will appear as TWO spirits rolled into ONE person. Like Jesus becoming ONE with Our Father.

  59. Rob

    He has MANY supporters in the church who are a part of the “Mystery of iniquity” spoken of by John. And is the leader of the “Secret Combination” spoken of in the BOM which HAS gotten OVER us. John’s riddle concerning this Man of Sin is about to make his entrance very shortly. Like Ram Emanuel says…..”We should never let a good CRISIS go to waste”. The so called false flag “crISIS” is COMING SOON.

  60. Dave the Disappointing


    Thank you for this enlightening and beautiful response. I have read it multiple times and have been uplifted each time. By the way, I have since learned who you are, and I remember you as an honorable, spiritual, humble young man when I was in the YM presidency with our friend. I do recall some of the tragic sorrow that you experienced. I know a little about your extraordinarily close, supportive family, whom I much admire. You are fortunate to have each other.

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